God and evil

[Jack]

Are you saying evil is a physical thing

That's irrelevant. If god created everything, then no matter what form evil takes it's still a creation of god.

Are you saying...a person with free will only can do evil and not good.

I don't see where he inferred that at all.

I thought a person with free will can do good or evil.

That would be my take as well, though it doesn't jibe with predestination or omniscience.

[freedom13]

Quote by: Isherwood That's irrelevant. If god created everything, then no matter what form evil takes it's still a creation of god. I don't see where he inferred that at all. That would be my take as well, though it doesn't jibe with predestination or omniscience.

If you are saying God know that Satan will eventually rebel; then the biblical allegory story in the Garden of Eden about Adam and Eve, and their disobedience to God symbolizes Satan’s rebelliousness and mankind fall. Therefore, Satan rebelling against God means there will be a war between good and evil. The bible also indicated that God will redeem Adam and Eve fall from grace with a promise seed.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: freefallife In an ATOM (not an ion) There is by definition a BALLANCE between both positive and negative. The more protons an atom has, the more electrons it has. That's how an atom gets its atomic number. They must reamain equal. That's how atoms work. Otherwise, its an ion. Get it? Now, take your analogy and apply it to good and evil in the universe. If it were true, there would always have to be an equal amount of good (positive) and evil (negative) in the universe, just like every atom. SO, if I added good (positive) to the universe, there would have to be more evil added (negative) to maintain that equal ballance. That is not the case. Your analogy is plainly fataly flawed. The ballance of charges in an atom has nothing to do with good/evil.

Wrong determinations.

Example - Hint :
- 75% stands for plus (+)
- 25% stands for minus (-)
As you notice, that balance does Not need to be perfectly shared in half.
What does it mean ?
Since you seem to portray yourself as an intellect, logic and knowledge inspired-driven by individual, then you should know the answer (with ease).

Another example :
Disease - as an example, (submitted by yourself) - points against your logic (at least), firmly. It supports my analogy-concept, instead and indeed.

P.S.
Is there anybody on Volcanvo forum, that can dedicate his/her time - in order to explain basic notions of Physics and Mathematics to freefalife, please ?

[Rainbow]

@freefallife
I re-read all your posts within this thread. Syllogisms, mostly.

Example :
The Sun.
The Sun exists Regardless of Homo Sapiens approach, stance, presence, etc.
Therefoere, a religous approach is Meaningless that May condition the Sun's activity.
You - on the other hand, seem to assert and/or point out that God is that Being that Must be blamed for any wrong-doing, along with all the guys who believe in God existence.
Therefore, all those who believe in God (by following religious values, as well) are imbeciles (or so).

My findings :
Due to Volcanvo forum's rules and regulations, I must Not express my opinion (openly), that describes you - as a person along with your activity.

Exception :
- you like playing games

[freefallife]

Quote by: Rainbow Wrong determinations. Example - Hint : - 75% stands for plus (+) - 25% stands for minus (-) As you notice, that balance does Not need to be perfectly shared in half.

Now you are contradicting your own analogy. There exists no ATOM that does not have a balance of positive and negative. ATOMS by definition have NO CHARGE!!!! What is so dificult to understand about that?? Your analogy doesn't work. Get over it. Show me an atom that has a charge and I'll show you an ION!!

P.S. Is there anybody on Volcanvo forum, that can dedicate his/her time - in order to explain basic notions of Physics and Mathematics to freefalife, please ?

Im sorry, but you can take take that self-rightous "I'm smarter than you" attitude and shove it. Post reported.

[Jack]

Let's leave our opinions of other members out of the debate, as per the rules, and only debate the topic, shall we?
Thank you.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Rainbow @freefallife I re-read all your posts within this thread. Syllogisms, mostly. You - on the other hand, seem to assert and/or point out that God is that Being that Must be blamed for any wrong-doing,...

Yes, god created everything, including evil.

along with all the guys who believe in God existence.

At no point throughout this thread have I blamed theists for evil.

Therefore, all those who believe in God (by following religious values, as well) are imbeciles (or so).

Quote where I called ANYONE an imbecile. My request is simple. Justify...give me a reason a perfectly good god would create so much evil in the universe.

My findings : Due to Volcanvo forum's rules and regulations, I must Not express my opinion (openly), that describes you - as a person along with your activity.

Once again with the personal attacks. Stick to the topic. If you can't do that while respecting my beliefs as I respect yours, then by all means, stay out of the forum. Its quite simple. As it seems you are somehow unable to do that, I bid you farewell.

[freedom13]

From freefallife:

Quote by: freedom13 View Post What your definition of evil? Is the word evil concrete or abstract? Why must I keep repeating myself? Do you not read the thread. This is explained in the OP and in later posts. You are purposefully holding back this debate. Trolling is against forum rules, my friend, so how about you stop doing it. Read the thread. Evil is anything that causes suffering, pain, destruction....so on and so on.

The only trolling in the thread is your illogical argument about God and evil.

Yes, the bible indicated that rebelliousness against God causes suffering, pain, destruction and others. Therefore, when the bible indicated that God causes evil, it is referring to Satan’s rebelliousness and the fall of mankind. The bible indicated evil happen after Adam and Eve disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Evil didn’t happen biblically before the point of rebelliousness in the Garden of Eden.

Was Satan original evil or later on Satan become evil by free will? Does it matter? An omniscient (all-knowing) god would know before he even created Lucifer that he was going to rebel.

Yes, God know in advance the circumstance and the consequence of rebellion. Adam and Eve have freewill to be good. Only fools want to blame God for Satan’s rebelliousness and the fall of mankind.

Colossians 1:16-17 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. I think its pretty self explanitory. (bolding mine)

The bible scriptures in Colossians 1:16-17 indicated that God created all good things.

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

[Jack]

Genesis doesn't contradict Colossians. What supports a reinterpretation of "by him all things were created" into "god created all good things"? I don't see any qualifications like that in the Colossians passage. Besides, saying that god only created good things (ignoring the fact for the moment that "good" is a very relative term) leaves open the question of who created the "bad" things. It also implies that god didn't create everything that exists.

The Genesis quote doesn't support the notion that god only created good things. "Good" was a post-creation assessment. God decided his work was "good". Compared to what and measured by what standard we're left to guess. Obviously it was whatever the people who wrote the Old Testament considered good.

[freedom13]

From Isherwood: Genesis doesn't contradict Colossians. What supports a reinterpretation of "by him all things were created" into "god created all good things"? I don't see any qualifications like that in the Colossians passage. Besides, saying that god only created good things (ignoring the fact for the moment that "good" is a very relative term) leaves open the question of who created the "bad" things. It also implies that god didn't create everything that exists.

I didn't indicated Colossian contradict Genesis. In the bible Jesus say God is good. The Colossian verses didn’t indicate something bad or evil unless you imagine it.

Colossians 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

From Isherwood: The Genesis quote doesn't support the notion that god only created good things. "Good" was a post-creation assessment. God decided his work was "good". Compared to what and measured by what standard we're left to guess. Obviously it was whatever the people who wrote the Old Testament considered good.

I thought the topic is about God and evil and what in the bible. I explain evil in the following previous threads:

From Freedom13: Yes, the bible indicated that rebelliousness against God causes suffering, pain, destruction and others. Therefore, when the bible indicated that God causes evil, it is referring to Satan’s rebelliousness and the fall of mankind. The bible indicated evil happen after Adam and Eve disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Evil didn’t happen biblically before the point of rebelliousness in the Garden of Eden.

From Freedom13: Yes, God know in advance the circumstance and the consequence of rebellion. Adam and Eve have freewill to be good. Only fools want to blame God for Satan’s rebelliousness and the fall of mankind.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: freedom13 I didn't indicated Colossian contradict Genesis. In the bible Jesus say God is good. The Colossian verses didn’t indicate something bad or evil unless you imagine it. Colossians 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Colossian didn't indicate that god created good or bad things. Just ALL THINGS.

I thought the topic is about God and evil and what in the bible. I explain evil in the following previous threads:

For the millionth time, the thread is about the justification of evil in the world, nothing about the bible or what it says.

God created all things visible and INvisable, per Colossians. If god didn't create evil, then it naturally implies he didn't create all things.

We alledgedly have a god who is all powerfull, all knowing and all loving. Why can't his power stop disasters, disease, distruction, defects etc? What is the justification for him NOT doing so? All Loving implies he wants nothing but good for his creation, yet this is far from the truth.

I think this thread has gone on long enough and not one good reason has been given to justify all the evil that exists in light of the fact that this god COULD stop it, would WANT to stop it, and KNOWS it exists.

If God is willing, but not able to prevent Disasters, then he is NOT omnipotent. If he is able, but not willing, then he is NOT omnibenevolent. If he is able AND willing, then why is there Disasters, defects, suffering, etc?? If he is NOT able OR willing, then why call him god?

Your god IS defined with the three omni characteristics, but the existence of disasters, defects, distruction and disease, it's pretty obvious that he isn't defined by these attributes or he doesn't exist at all.

[Winter wind]

OK everyone needs to take a look at my sig and take a deep breath.

Moving on.

Freefallife, could you respond to my previous post? I know it was a long time ago and you have like three other people jumping up and down on you, but it would be really great if you could get to my post sometime.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: itsdarts If God is willing, but not able to prevent Disasters, then he is NOT omnipotent. If he is able, but not willing, then he is NOT omnibenevolent. If he is able AND willing, then why is there Disasters, defects, suffering, etc?? If he is NOT able OR willing, then why call him god?

I have answered this all on this post.
God and evil
It will speed up the process if you could read it (not a rebuke. I rarely read the whole thing either. and it wasn't addressed to you.)

[freedom13]

ItsDarts: Colossian didn't indicate that god created good or bad things. Just ALL THINGS.

Are you saying things in heaven is not good.

ItsDarts: For the millionth time, the thread is about the justification of evil in the world, nothing about the bible or what it says.

Figuratively speaking for the trillion of time, I say Satanism and will continue to, because the truth will eventually crack that BLOCK HEAD.

ItsDarts: God created all things visible and INvisable, per Colossians. If god didn't create evil, then it naturally implies he didn't create all things.

How can God create something invisible and call it tangible and natural? Is something invisible considered to be tangible, Charlie Brown?

Misinterpretation of the bible and mental illness!

ItsDarts: We alledgedly have a god who is all powerfull, all knowing and all loving. Why can't his power stop disasters, disease, distruction, defects etc? What is the justification for him NOT doing so? All Loving implies he wants nothing but good for his creation, yet this is far from the truth. I think this thread has gone on long enough and not one good reason has been given to justify all the evil that exists in light of the fact that this god COULD stop it, would WANT to stop it, and KNOWS it exists.

Misinterpretation of the bible!

Again, Satanism causes evil in the Garden of Eden.
Here we go again... My previous threads:

From Freedom13: Yes, the bible indicated that rebelliousness against God causes suffering, pain, destruction and others. Therefore, when the bible indicated that God causes evil, it is referring to Satan’s rebelliousness and the fall of mankind. The bible indicated evil happen after Adam and Eve disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Evil didn’t happen biblically before the point of rebelliousness in the Garden of Eden.

From Freedom13: Yes, God know in advance the circumstance and the consequence of rebellion. Adam and Eve have freewill to be good. Only fools want to blame God for Satan’s rebelliousness and the fall of mankind.

ItsDarts: God is willing, but not able to prevent Disasters, then he is NOT omnipotent. If he is able, but not willing, then he is NOT omnibenevolent. If he is able AND willing, then why is there Disasters, defects, suffering, etc?? If he is NOT able OR willing, then why call him god? Your god IS defined with the three omni characteristics, but the existence of disasters, defects, distruction and disease, it's pretty obvious that he isn't defined by these attributes or he doesn't exist at all.

Again, Satan is the ruler of this world, and the bible stated that God will eliminate Satan and evil.

Beside, Charlie brown - God didn't created evil as a tangible thing, because it is not something concrete. Evil is a state of mind, mental illness and self destruction. God is not the blame. You are.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Winter wind I have answered this all on this post. God and evil It will speed up the process if you could read it (not a rebuke. I rarely read the whole thing either. and it wasn't addressed to you.)

I read it (all) and I didn't see one thing in there that addresses Epicurus' Paradox (some call it a riddle). You will need to copy and paste the parts that address the above, because I didn't see it.

It stands to reason that as long as the evils (things that cause suffering) in the world exist, the christian/judeo/islamic god can't exist as defined in the bible. Its the ONLY thing that justifies all the natural evils.

[ItsDarts]

Freedom13, when you realize that we aren't talking about the garden of eden and Satan, come back and discuss the topic in this thread. In the mean time be happy that I'm too lazy to report your post.

[JLrep]

Quote by: Isherwood Genesis doesn't contradict Colossians. What supports a reinterpretation of "by him all things were created" into "god created all good things"? I don't see any qualifications like that in the Colossians passage. Besides, saying that god only created good things (ignoring the fact for the moment that "good" is a very relative term) leaves open the question of who created the "bad" things. It also implies that god didn't create everything that exists.

Quote by: ItsDarts Colossian didn't indicate that god created good or bad things. Just ALL THINGS. God created all things visible and INvisable, per Colossians. If god didn't create evil, then it naturally implies he didn't create all things. We alledgedly have a god who is all powerfull, all knowing and all loving. Why can't his power stop disasters, disease, distruction, defects etc? What is the justification for him NOT doing so? All Loving implies he wants nothing but good for his creation, yet this is far from the truth. I think this thread has gone on long enough and not one good reason has been given to justify all the evil that exists in light of the fact that this god COULD stop it, would WANT to stop it, and KNOWS it exists.

...and so on and so forth.
I suppose that my mistake is that I endeavor to be both concise and tactful. As I remember it, I remember that the proper way to get a response on Volconvo is to be long-winded, somewhat sentimental, and to make vague insinuations about your opponent(s). Otherwise your post tends to get forgotten rather quickly.

In any case, I have trouble justifying repeating myself when I can so easily point to what I have already said:

Quote by: JLrep God did not create evil because evil does not require creation. If anything, it requires destruction. Evil does not exist. "Exists" only applies to evil insofar as evil is not imaginary. I don't know how to be more clear about this.

It is rather well-known that cold is merely an absence of heat, that heat can be generated and moved and stored, but that if we say the same of cold, we're actually still talking about a movement of heat. We often talk about cold as though it existed, though, as though it had its own being or substance or quantity. This is because it's convenient.

It is also convenient to imagine evil to be somehow substantial or existent. This is a convenience you need to break your reliance on. It is convenient to say that an act is evil, so long as it is understood that what is meant is that it is an act done without love, without goodness. When this understanding is omitted, when evil becomes a thing, then related understanding fails as well.

As I've said, it's hard to be clearer about this.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: ItsDarts I read it (all) and I didn't see one thing in there that addresses Epicurus' Paradox (some call it a riddle). You will need to copy and paste the parts that address the above, because I didn't see it. It stands to reason that as long as the evils (things that cause suffering) in the world exist, the christian/judeo/islamic god can't exist as defined in the bible. Its the ONLY thing that justifies all the natural evils.

I don't disagree that God created evil. What I do say is that evil is necessary for good to exist. So take it from this point of view. To create good, one must create evil.

Can't feel good about sunshine without rain.

Quote by: freedom13 Beside, Charlie brown - God didn't created evil as a tangible thing, because it is not something concrete. Evil is a state of mind, mental illness and self destruction. God is not the blame. You are.

If ItsDarts is too lazy, I'll respond.

Nope, this doesn't make sense. Evil is a state of mind that was devised first by God. Simply because God created man with the capability for that evil state of mind, the metal illness and self destruction.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Winter wind I don't disagree that God created evil. What I do say is that evil is necessary for good to exist. So take it from this point of view. To create good, one must create evil. Can't feel good about sunshine without rain.

Then explain heaven.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Lull Then explain heaven.

Explain what the core of the earth looks like.

(I've never been to heaven so....)

But I do see where this is going. If heaven is possible, why not make everything heaven therefore making everything good?

I actually don't have an answer and it is an interesting flaw in my logic...

I will edit this post when I have a brain wave.

edit: maybe heaven is some kind of place beyond our concept of good and evil. Something beyond this universe's logic. Something we can't yet comprehend.

It's a long shot, but not impossible.