God and evil

[JLrep]

Quote by: Winter wind No, I'm taking freefall's side on this argument. I would question your workmanship if you created the person who would break the window and knew the person would break the window

Is your answer to the question I asked yes, or no?

[Jack]

I can keep this very simple. Suppose I make a window.

Your analogy doesn't equate to the Christian god's creating imperfection, evil, whatever we call it. Now if you claimed to be a perfect window maker and said that your windows were perfect in every way, then we found a flaw of any type in them, it might be a closer analogy to the concept of a perfect being creating imperfection then blaming the imperfection on his creation.

[JLrep]

Is your answer to the question I asked yes, or no?

[Jack]

It's unreasonable to expect an answer to a question I consider invalid. It's too similar to "have you stopped beating your wife yet?". If someone else considers your query valid, they can supply an answer.

[JLrep]

Quote by: Isherwood Your analogy doesn't equate to the Christian god's creating imperfection, evil, whatever we call it.

This may shock you, but my position in this debate is that God did not create imperfection, evil, etc. What you're saying here is that my analogy doesn't fit with the position against which I am currently arguing. I'm afraid this is something you'll have to get used to.

Winter wind,
The point of my question is whether or not you would say that I had created a broken window. We can add the modifiers you mentioned, if you wish.

In any case, if the question's going to cause trouble, go ahead and ignore it. It's the least important part of my post.

[Jack]

This may shock you, but my position in this debate is that God did not create imperfection, evil, etc.

That's obvious, and perhaps I sowed confusion by the wording I chose. I should have said that this analogy didn't adequately address the question of whether or not god is responsible for creating evil, imperfection, etc. "You" building a window is not analogous to a perfect god creating imperfection. The analogy is missing a metaphysical element present in the topic.

[JLrep]

Fair enough. How do you feel about forgetting about that particular analogy? I doubt it will get anywhere and I'm getting tired of it.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Winter wind Who knows. But I can tell you for evil to exist, good must also exist.

I never disagreed with this in its entirety. What I relly disagree with is that there has to be some sort of EQUAL balance between the two. As in, there must be as much good as there is evil in the universe. Quite obviously, that is not the case. The universe is, by its very nature, an extremely violent place.

I know this is a childish visual aid, but it's how I think of it... (Good)------------------------(average)----------------------------------(Evil) That is the spectrum which a human is capable of.

Here I must once again disagree. What is average?? If I live my life and cause no pain or suffering to anyone (no evil), would I not therefore be considered good? Would I be considered evil if I lived alone on an island and never performed any good for anyone? No, I would be good. The default is good. When you start out on a killing spree, it is only then one would consider you evil.

Evil needs to exist for good to have any meaning.

If you read back, you'll notice this has been covered. Are you going to try to maintain that a child born deformed and suffering would not know what pain was if injured seriously?

I don't know why He made it, but it's not like creating everything to be (good) would be any different. I think it adds color to life, to have imperfection in the world. It makes us much more active and interesting. (here i am saying evil is a good thing...)

One would wonder if you would consider evil the same if a tornado blew apart your home and killed your familly.

Well, then let's take your idea. Visual aid time Good---------------average----------------evil to Good--------------average-evil but that makes no sense so Good------average-----evil So creating the smallest degree of pain to contrast that experience would make a certain level of pleasure the norm. So eventually that level of pleasure becomes neutral and evil becomes that small margin. It's how we define our lives.

I don't know about you, but I would only have to feel pain once to know it hurt.

Good and evil is less of a stark difference and more of a spectrum.

I think I have shown that a person that simply does no evil and no good, would be considered by default a good person. Almost like the neighbor that you never see. He doesn't have loud parties, but he doesn't mow my lawn either. He has neither caused me evil or good. By your reasoning I should just call him average. I happen to think that if someone asked me what I thought of him, I would say that he was a GOOD neighbor.

[freefallife]

Quote by: freedom13 [b]Is God perfect? Did God created good and evil?

Asked and answered. Stop trolling.

The point of my questions was for you to be logical on the matter.

And I was logical. I showed you two LOGIC arguments that support my idea.

1. God created all that exists in the universe
2. Evil exists in the universe
3. GOD CREATED EVIL

Or if you go the "Satandidit" route:

1.God created Satan
2. Satan is evil
3. GOD CREATED EVIL

There. Nice and logical for you. Refute those if you can.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Rainbow Evil = Bad God = Good Do you agree with that concept and/or approach ?

Of couse I don't. I don't believe god to be anything, least of all good.

Example : Disease Disease is made of atoms. Atoms carry (negative and positive) values, regardless of scope (which this case, it is sociology-related one).

And here, once agian, your famous atomic analogy. I will reiterate my view on this. What you analogy suggests is that there MUST be a BALLANCE of negative (evil) and positive (good) for a stable system. By definition, atoms have no overall electrical charge. So the more protons I have (good), I must have more electrons (evil). This is why your analogy fails. If there are more protons, there are more electrons. The implications of which when compared to good and evil are disasterous. I can't attempt to add more good to the world because it would necessitate that addition of more evil to reamain balanced. That is simply not the case. you atom analogy is fatally flawed.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: freefallife Of couse I don't. I don't believe god to be anything, least of all good. And here, once agian, your famous atomic analogy. I will reiterate my view on this. What you analogy suggests is that there MUST be a BALLANCE of negative (evil) and positive (good) for a stable system. By definition, atoms have no overall electrical charge. So the more protons I have (good), I must have more electrons (evil). This is why your analogy fails. If there are more protons, there are more electrons. The implications of which when compared to good and evil are disasterous. I can't attempt to add more good to the world because it would necessitate that addition of more evil to reamain balanced. That is simply not the case. you atom analogy is fatally flawed.

Make sure you have entered the right forum and/or thread, up for debate.

[Jack]

Quote by: JLrep Fair enough. How do you feel about forgetting about that particular analogy? I doubt it will get anywhere and I'm getting tired of it.

No problem. I'm getting to that age when forgetting is easy. It's the trying to remember what my point was that's getting difficult.

[freedom13]

from freefallife:

And I was logical. I showed you two LOGIC arguments that support my idea. 1. God created all that exists in the universe 2. Evil exists in the universe 3. GOD CREATED EVIL

What your definition of evil? Is the word evil concrete or abstract?

Or if you go the "Satandidit" route: 1.God created Satan 2. Satan is evil 3. GOD CREATED EVIL There. Nice and logical for you. Refute those if you can.

Was Satan original evil or later on Satan become evil by free will? Where in the bible that stated that God create Satan? How do you interpret the bible? Literally or metaphorically!

[freefallife]

Quote by: freedom13 What your definition of evil? Is the word evil concrete or abstract?

Why must I keep repeating myself? Do you not read the thread. This is explained in the OP and in later posts. You are purposefully holding back this debate. Trolling is against forum rules, my friend, so how about you stop doing it. Read the thread. Evil is anything that causes suffering, pain, destruction....so on and so on.

Was Satan original evil or later on Satan become evil by free will?

Does it matter? An omniscient (all-knowing) god would know before he even created Lucifer that he was going to rebel.

Where in the bible that stated that God create Satan?

Another example of how much more well read atheists are than theists when it comes to biblical passages. Strange. At any rate, there are a number of passages in the bible that mention god's creation of angels. I wont bother to post them all. Here's one:

Colossians 1:16-17 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

I think its pretty self explanitory. (bolding mine)

How do you interpret the bible? Literally or metaphorically!

This question is for another thread. My interpretation of biblical passages has nothing to do with unjustified evil in the universe. Again, stick to the topic.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Rainbow Make sure you have entered the right forum and/or thread, up for debate.

Uh, yeah...it's in the right thread, you just don't comprehend it apparently. Perhaps some clarification?

You keep refering to the atom having both positive and negative. In the context of this thread, Im going to take that as you meant to compare the proton to good (positive) and the electron to evil (negative).

In an ATOM (not an ion) There is by definition a BALLANCE between both positive and negative. The more protons an atom has, the more electrons it has. That's how an atom gets its atomic number. They must reamain equal. That's how atoms work. Otherwise, its an ion. Get it?

Now, take your analogy and apply it to good and evil in the universe. If it were true, there would always have to be an equal amount of good (positive) and evil (negative) in the universe, just like every atom. SO, if I added good (positive) to the universe, there would have to be more evil added (negative) to maintain that equal ballance. That is not the case. Your analogy is plainly fataly flawed.

The ballance of charges in an atom has nothing to do with good/evil.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: linda The person who broke the window is the person that exists in this spectrum of right and wrong. Do you destroy the person because he is capable of doing wrong and then does it or do you try to show the person why what he has done is wrong? This I suggest is an example of the "middle".

I agree, I was pointing out that the analogy was lacking.

Quote by: jlrep Is your answer to the question I asked yes, or no?

I was saying the logic of the analogy was faulty. However I agree in spirit with out.

Quote by: freefallife I don't know about you, but I would only have to feel pain once to know it hurt.

Yes, but you can see how people react to pain differently based on experiences. I know an old miner who fell off a platform and broke some ridiculous amount of bones, was impaled by the tool he was using, and had a heart attack all at the same time. He was able to fight off the paramedics and take a cigarette before walking into the ambulance without so much as a whimper.

He has a different average of pain, because he had experienced more pain in his life. That average can be seen from person to person. Experiencing it only once would make it seem like the worst thing possible. It would make experiencing the best in life seem like average.

Quote by: freefallife If you read back, you'll notice this has been covered. Are you going to try to maintain that a child born deformed and suffering would not know what pain was if injured seriously?

no, but what I am saying is that the child born deformed and suffering is able to create that as his average. So that additional pain would be the same. If you were in his position, the added pain of his deformity and the injury would be worse then if he had the injury and was already used to the deformity.

Quote by: freefallife One would wonder if you would consider evil the same if a tornado blew apart your home and killed your familly.

If an experience like that happened to me every day, wouldn't I begin to create that as my average, as my norm? Or the other way around, if it had never happened before, wouldn't it seem so much worse?

We always think what we have is bad, and that if it could be just a little better, it would make all the difference. But we look at the world and we see that those born into great wealth have to seek out greater pleasures, while those born into poor families are used to it and find pleasures in things that the wealthy people think are normal or even inferior.

It is cold, but it seems logical...

Quote by: freefallife Here I must once again disagree. What is average?? If I live my life and cause no pain or suffering to anyone (no evil), would I not therefore be considered good? Would I be considered evil if I lived alone on an island and never performed any good for anyone? No, I would be good. The default is good. When you start out on a killing spree, it is only then one would consider you evil.

You incapability to do evil or evil just makes you average. Everyone else would have done the same in your position. Good isn't the default. "OK" is the default. While we all have the capability to do great evil, we also have the same to do good (just look at Buddha, Jesus, or Gandhi).

Doing nothing and being nothing and not effecting anyone is just "ok". Not special, not great, just ok.

Quote by: freefallife I never disagreed with this in its entirety. What I relly disagree with is that there has to be some sort of EQUAL balance between the two. As in, there must be as much good as there is evil in the universe. Quite obviously, that is not the case. The universe is, by its very nature, an extremely violent place.

I don't know about the universe, but the world can be a violent place. Also it can be a great place. Every concept we have of good is done in comparison to something else, either better or worse.

I am capable of taking a knife and stabbing it into the nearest, unsuspecting person, and I could also go onto the street and help the worst off in life like my aunt does. Instead I sit here and do what is average.

Quote by: freefallife I happen to think that if someone asked me what I thought of him, I would say that he was a GOOD neighbor.

Well, your neighbor would have to sacrifice some of his pleasures to accomplish that. He would have to stop his loud parties that he likes. This takes an effort. Therefore he has done good. Otherwise he is just doing what is expected. This is ok, this is fine. It isn't wonderful.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: freefallife I appologize for not refuting every single person individually. I felt this had been covered in previous and subsequent posts.

Never mind. I touched the point since I opened similar thread as pointed in post no # 8.

As an analogy, I used color. A speck of yellow is all that is needed to appreciate the color blue.

I agreethat very true.

A direct refutation of your attempt at justification is that not all evils lead to our deaths. If what you assert was indeed the case, then any evil that falls short of causing death is unjustified.

No, I do not agree here. Natural catastrophies mostly cause death. But you may argue many get injured. I attribute to Karmic philosophy. As you sow so shall you reap is approriate saying. Then you would come up with saying why infants suffer losing their mothers. They have done any bad acts. That can only be explained on reincarnation and past lives bad actions. ???? That is true and reality.

So God is not responsible for any type of misery.

[pikatore]

Even if Satan had free will as an angel, that isn't the point! God would have been the creator of 'free will' itself! Being the creator of EVERYTHING means that EVERYTHING was created by you, including evil, free will, and rebellious little humans!!! It's not a difficult concept to grasp!

[Winter wind]

Quote by: pikatore Even if Satan had free will as an angel, that isn't the point! God would have been the creator of 'free will' itself! Being the creator of EVERYTHING means that EVERYTHING was created by you, including evil, free will, and rebellious little humans!!! It's not a difficult concept to grasp!

Hense the reason why I have covered it. Check out one of my earlier posts for details. (I don't mind. I never read the entirety of these things either)

[freedom13]

Quote by: pikatore Even if Satan had free will as an angel, that isn't the point! God would have been the creator of 'free will' itself! Being the creator of EVERYTHING means that EVERYTHING was created by you, including evil, free will, and rebellious little humans!!! It's not a difficult concept to grasp!

Are you saying evil is a physical thing, and a person with free will only can do evil and not good. I thought a person with free will can do good or evil.