God and evil

[freefallife]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 I'd like to throw out another perspective. What if the world and flesh we are born into is the evil and life(that which makes us move), is the spirit, is the good. I'd like to define evil as that without The Father. So, we are born with two realities, with The Father, or with the Earth/flesh/world. These realities exist in our thoughts. Feed the flesh or feed the spirit. Free will would have a great impact on distribution of strenghth to each side.Our objective is to return to our nature.Which ever reality we choose defines our nature. So our time on Earth reveals who we are and where we return after death. Only on Earth do we have both natures. Death is the condition of your reality.From death you move to your reality of good nature or bad nature. Where that is, is the unknown, but we do know the characteristics of those natures. Just follow the ultimate of each. They run opposite of each other but move up and down ultimately. Hey, I just realize that image is of the Cross.

This response gives no justification of needless, non free will caused evils. Free will has been played out already. Unless you can offer something more substantial to the debate other than a big hypothetical "what-if", concede that free will cannot possibly justify the existance of human suffering in the world. Free will does not justify any of the natural horrors and disasters god apparently "programed" into the function of the world.

[freefallife]

I find it interesting that this thread gets so little response from the theists. But just to keep it alive

I recieved an email yesterday from a base chaplain. This is a quote from that correspondance.

God, by definition, is all powerful. He can do anything He wants to do. He is also Eternal and not bound by time, so He can see the end from the beginning. He knows what you and I will go through, He knows what will work best for us, and He has planned a best route for our life.

Since I don't want to get into a philosophical debate with my base chaplain, I thought I would ask the questions I had for him here on this thread.

It seems to me that if this all powerful god who knows everything and can do anything he wants to do, as this chaplain contends, what could possibly be his reasoning behind the virus that causes AIDS, cancer or any other disease for that matter. I only bring up AIDS because it has NOT been in existance since the beginnings of humankind. Therefore, somewhere along the way, this all powerful god decided that we DIDN'T have enough death, pain and suffering on this planet and introduced or allowed the introduction of a virus that as of yet has a 100% lethality rate. The only answer in my opinion is that there does not exist any god that cares about the fate of the human species.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: freefallife I find it interesting that this thread gets so little response from the theists. But just to keep it alive I recieved an email yesterday from a base chaplain. This is a quote from that correspondance. Since I don't want to get into a philosophical debate with my base chaplain, I thought I would ask the questions I had for him here on this thread. It seems to me that if this all powerful god who knows everything and can do anything he wants to do, as this chaplain contends, what could possibly be his reasoning behind the virus that causes AIDS, cancer or any other disease for that matter. I only bring up AIDS because it has NOT been in existance since the beginnings of humankind. Therefore, somewhere along the way, this all powerful god decided that we DIDN'T have enough death, pain and suffering on this planet and introduced or allowed the introduction of a virus that as of yet has a 100% lethality rate. The only answer in my opinion is that there does not exist any god that cares about the fate of the human species.

This will only throw the thread off topic. The short answer will be, maybe god created AIDS to stop promescuity between heteros and slow the progression of homosexuality. While that may seem horrible on gods part, god gets a free ride when it comes to things he does. He is exempt from blame and anything he does is Just, no matter how unjust it seems to us. Our finite wisdom can not comprehend His infinte wisdom blah blah blah, gotta have faith blah blah blah, praise Jesus.
Remember, god was "just" when he destroyed Sodom & Gemmora(sp?).

You are right that theists avoid these types of threads because they don't have an answer. There is no rational answer as to why a god like the christian god would allow suffering from natural events that he could clearly control. Their best answer always seems to be, we can't understand gods plan. They may be satisfied with that answer, but obviously atheists aren't.

[Domino]

Unless you can offer something more substantial to the debate other than a big hypothetical "what-if", concede that free will cannot possibly justify the existance of human suffering in the world.

You're already positing the existence of God, but the idea that he might know what he's doing is "a big hypothetical 'what-if'"?

If you think someone is going to deduce God's motives from basic principles, I think you have a poor understanding of what a 'god' is.

You want I should go ask Him for you?

[JLrep]

Quote by: freefallife Free will has been played out already. Unless you can offer something more substantial to the debate other than a big hypothetical "what-if", concede that free will cannot possibly justify the existance of human suffering in the world. Free will does not justify any of the natural horrors and disasters god apparently "programed" into the function of the world.

Quote by: ItsDarts You are right that theists avoid these types of threads because they don't have an answer. There is no rational answer as to why a god like the christian god would allow suffering from natural events that he could clearly control. Their best answer always seems to be, we can't understand gods plan. They may be satisfied with that answer, but obviously atheists aren't.

It's not as though you contested my last post, freefallife.
God created everything in the universe. Evil is not a thing.

[wyoguy]

I can, in no way, speak for the other theists on this site, but my own studies leave me wondering why God doesn't just let this world be the hell it truly deserves to be. The presence of evil doesn't flip me out really. That it is constrained, somehow, does.

[freefallife]

Quote by: JLrep It's not as though you contested my last post, freefallife. God created everything in the universe. Evil is not a thing.

I appologize for overlooking your post. I'd be happy to show you how I believe it lacks any merit whatsoever.

To begin with, you contradict yourself. You state that:

God created all matter, energy, life, and goodness - the substance of the universe. Evil is not a substance

Bolding mine:
I would like to know how "goodness" is a substance while "evil" is not. Interesting point of view.

At any rate, moving on...lets just go off of what you stated.

Evil is not a substance. No kidding. You don't say. I think you missed the point. "Evil" is an idea that describes a human experience. While evil may lack "substance" it's experience is very real. Evil is anything that causes human suffering or pain. Since the horrors and suffering endured throughout the universe (disasters, disease, deformities) were all created by an omnipotent being, and everything which causes human suffering can be classified as evil, then god created what we experience and classify as evil. Hope that cleared it up for you a bit. God created evil, and he did it on purpose.

On to your analogy:

As an analogy, my computer is made up entirely of matter that was created by God - but nowhere are we lead to believe that God created computers whole and complete, as they are. He simply created us with the ability to create them using the materials He made.

What your analogy fails to explain are the evils that were in fact (according to theology) directly created by god, not humans. Floods, drought, earthquake, hurricane, tornado, volcano. etc. The very system of life on this earth is one based on death and destruction...one that REQUIRES bloodshead.

Obviously, your argument and analogy are fataly flawed.

[freefallife]

Quote by: wyoguy I can, in no way, speak for the other theists on this site, but my own studies leave me wondering why God doesn't just let this world be the hell it truly deserves to be. The presence of evil doesn't flip me out really. That it is constrained, somehow, does.

How could the idea that this world should be MORE evil possibly fit into the scenario of a benevolent creator full of mercy and love?

At any rate, your post does not address the topic of this thread at all. Please post on topic or don't post at all. Thanks.

[freedom13]

Quote by: freefallife This response gives no justification of needless, non free will caused evils. Free will has been played out already. Unless you can offer something more substantial to the debate other than a big hypothetical "what-if", concede that free will cannot possibly justify the existance of human suffering in the world. Free will does not justify any of the natural horrors and disasters god apparently "programed" into the function of the world.

So you believe Christians are human robots or some type of programmed creatures. Who is responsible for this insane nonsense that you claim? Your argument will make sense in the threads if you are claiming “Satan and evil” is Satanism. Accordingly to the bible, Satan is a god and the ruler of the world. Your interpretation about the God of righteous is indeed false. You are acting out the personification of Satan and the manifestation of evil Satanism. Again, your argument only make sense if you change the topic from “God and Evil” to “Satan and Evil” in the threads.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: freedom13 So you believe Christians are human robots or some type of programmed creatures. Who is responsible for this insane nonsense that you claim?

Nobody made this claim in the least.

Your argument will make sense in the threads if you are claiming “Satan and evil” is Satanism.

I don't know what you mean by satanism, but it has nothing to do with THIS thread.

Accordingly to the bible, Satan is a god and the ruler of the world.

Support this or retract it. Since when is Satan a god? Better not let your god hear this. LOL

Your interpretation about the God of righteous is indeed false.

Saying this doesn't make it so, please elaborate or retract.

You are acting out the personification of Satan and the manifestation of evil Satanism. Again, your argument only make sense if you change the topic from “God and Evil” to “Satan and Evil” in the threads.

Did you even bother to READ the thread? Evil in this thread is "Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous". Think of natural disasters, disease, birth defects, famine, drought, etc.... This has nothing to do with Satan or Satanism. Are you suggesting that Satan is the cause of these types of evil?

[freefallife]

Thank you Darts. I thought the topic of the thread was more than obvious too.

[linda_mary_13]

Evil is a power. The virus that caused Aids isn't evil, but the power that was used to get that virus into humans was evil. This power does not act on its own. It needs a host in order for it to produce that which the power produces, evil.

Evil, what is it? I believe it is that which is NOT God. If God IS, than that which is not God also is. Free will allows us as humans to choose either extreme. Evil will never have one up on God because, God is everything, the Whole. God in his perfection is Pure Goodness. Evil exists because the Human race currently is the host.

This is my perception anyway. It's subject to change as I seek knowledge, just like everyone else. buAt least

[Jack]

Your argument is internally inconsistent.

Evil, what is it? I believe it is that which is NOT God...God is everything

It might also have helped to read two posts up:

Quote by: ItsDarts Evil in this thread is "Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous". Think of natural disasters, disease, birth defects, famine, drought, etc.... This has nothing to do with Satan or Satanism. Are you suggesting that Satan is the cause of these types of evil?

[linda_mary_13]

Quote by: Isherwood Your argument is internally inconsistent. It might also have helped to read two posts up:

Please explain then the word "causing". Seems to me that suggests energy or force, which is power.

Also, my argument is not inconsistent. God is All. If light and darkness exist, and good and evil exist and all opposites exist, then it puts God in the third position, the Whole, the Judge, Mercy.

[Jack]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 Please explain then the word "causing". Seems to me that suggests energy or force, which is power.

We know, thanks to meteorology, what causes storms, earthquakes and other natural phenomena. We have no need to postulate a god, evil or any other superstitious "cause" to explain them.

Also, my argument is not inconsistent. God is All. If light and darkness exist, and good and evil exist and all opposites exist, then it puts God in the third position, the Whole, the Judge, Mercy.

You said that you considered evil to be "that which is NOT God", a direct contradiction of the premise that god is all. Further, when you mention opposite states, light and darkness, good and evil, there is no "third position". If you put god in the position of being a superset (containing the opposites you mentioned), he then must contain all the subsets of that superset. That would mean that god includes (is responsible for, caused, etc.) evil.

Theist's attempts to account for the contradiction of a perfect god who creates imperfection always leads to contortions of logic and rationality. When a concept demands extreme mental gymnastics to accept, when it requires abandoning good sense and practicality, it begs skepticism.

[linda_mary_13]

I am suggesting that good and evil, opposites, are a subset of God. God even is more than our logic is able to comprehend.

Again, you did not address "causes". In meteorology (from an amatuers point of view) the cause or force or power, is a result of conflict between hot and cold. Right?

[JLrep]

Quote by: freefallife I would like to know how "goodness" is a substance while "evil" is not. Interesting point of view.

Mmm. A fair point. I should have said, the source of all goodness is God. That is to say, goodness is a presence or knowledge of or closeness to God. As far as I know, God did not create goodness, just as He did not create Himself; He simply is.

Quote by: freefallife Evil is not a substance. No kidding. You don't say. I think you missed the point.

I was reiterating my last response to your step-by-step argument.

Quote by: freefallife "Evil" is an idea that describes a human experience. While evil may lack "substance" it's experience is very real. Evil is anything that causes human suffering or pain. Since the horrors and suffering endured throughout the universe (disasters, disease, deformities) were all created by an omnipotent being, and everything which causes human suffering can be classified as evil, then god created what we experience and classify as evil. Hope that cleared it up for you a bit. God created evil, and he did it on purpose.

Begging the question.

Quote by: freefallife What your analogy fails to explain are the evils that were in fact (according to theology) directly created by god, not humans. Floods, drought, earthquake, hurricane, tornado, volcano. etc. Obviously, your argument and analogy are fataly flawed.

Obviously.
Floods, tornadoes, and so forth are not themselves evil. They can kill you, but so can water and sand and anything else - the only difference is that they're more notorious as disasters. Whether or not they existed before the Fall I don't know, although I imagine they did as they are part of the natural processes of nature. Before the Fall, people could not die; they had nothing to fear from meteorological phenomena. After the Fall, we were put at a sort of enmity against the good world that God created. If man had not sinned, then we would never starve or be in pain or be deformed, regardless of what changes the world went through.

Quote by: freefallife The very system of life on this earth is one based on death and destruction...one that REQUIRES bloodshead.

Of course it is! You speak a different truth than you intend, here. By our actions we have irrevocably tainted this world with death, and so Earthly lives - including the planet itself - are of death and leading towards death. This world, and we ourselves, do require bloodshed. Bloodshed which was provided by Jesus on the cross.

[freedom13]

Quote by: ItsDarts Nobody made this claim in the least. I don't know what you mean by satanism, but it has nothing to do with THIS thread. Support this or retract it. Since when is Satan a god? Better not let your god hear this. LOL Saying this doesn't make it so, please elaborate or retract. Did you even bother to READ the thread? Evil in this thread is "Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous". Think of natural disasters, disease, birth defects, famine, drought, etc.... This has nothing to do with Satan or Satanism. Are you suggesting that Satan is the cause of these types of evil?

I didn't say evil weren't in the threads. I say the threads didn't make sense without Satan, because you are claiming God is evil instead of Satan or Satanism.

Accordingly to bible Satan is a god :

2 Corinthians 4:4 - The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Yes, Satan and evil exist in wicked people and world governments.

EXPOSING THE ATHEIST The best way to understand the nature of atheism is to understand its author. satan is its author. It's important to remain conscious of the fact that satan had his origin in heaven, and is thoroughly familiar with the fact of the existence of God, heaven, the angels, hell and etc. Thus despite what you have been previously deceptively taught and despite the deceptive dictionary's meaning of atheism, atheism is properly defined as a denial of the existence of God in the midst of full knowledge that the true God does indeed exist. Atheism knows God exists; it is quite familiar with that fact, but it says "under no circumstance or situation will I admit to God's existence." Atheism clearly perceives the fingerprints of God on all of creation, but refuses to admit He is the Creator. Atheism perceives the divine authorship of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, but refuses to admit that God is their Author. Atheism perceives the decorousness and perfection of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, but refuses to admit they are superior to all other laws. Atheism clearly perceives the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, but refuses to admit His divinity. If an atheist could see the wounds in the body of Christ and actually feel them with his hands, he would deny that the wounds are there. Atheism is deliberate effort to never admit the existence of God. Atheism is the ultimate of satanism. Ask satan does God exist and he will deny it. Ask him does satan exist and he will deny his own existence even while in your presence. Atheism holds the Bible in one hand, but deny its existence by denying its truth with the other. In order to properly understand the nature of atheism, one must understand the natures of righteousness and sin. The two principles are antithetical to one another. Since sin is antithetical to righteousness, its very antithetical nature seeks to nullify righteousness. Since it is an antithetical principle to righteousness, it must remain true to its nature even in the most insane instances. Therefore it must hate God even though God is righteous and has given it no just cause for its hatred. It is this antithetical principle, called "the law of sin" which is at work in the hearts of atheists causing them to reject God. The law of sin is none other than the law that governs satan's kingdom.

[Jack]

Theists can no more provide any sensible reason or evidence to support the notion of personified evil (Satan) than they can of personified perfection (the gods). Claiming that Satan compels atheists to ignore the unsubstantiated claims of theists may make theists feel better, but it's nonsensical. It's the theist's belief system that accepts the presence of Satan. That belief system is not shared by non-Christians. It's a Christian opinion, one not shared by non-believers.

[freefallife]

Quote by: JLrep Mmm. A fair point. I should have said, the source of all goodness is God.

And, as the creator of ALL that exists, he is the source of evil as well. He had to create it in order to give us free will. Correct?

Begging the question.

Begging what question? God is held to be the creator of all that exists and yet somehow in this thread it is asserted that he didn't create evil. If he didn't create evil, then god is not the creator of EVERYTHING now is he. Is that what you are maintaining?

Floods, tornadoes, and so forth are not themselves evil. They can kill you, but so can water and sand and anything else - the only difference is that they're more notorious as disasters.

Something doesn't have to cause death to be considered evil.

Whether or not they existed before the Fall I don't know, although I imagine they did as they are part of the natural processes of nature.

So you conceede that god created these evils.

Before the Fall, people could not die; they had nothing to fear from meteorological phenomena. After the Fall, we were put at a sort of enmity against the good world that God created. If man had not sinned, then we would never starve or be in pain or be deformed, regardless of what changes the world went through.

I have read NOWHERE in the bible where humans were EVER immortal. Please provide support for this.

Of course it is! You speak a different truth than you intend, here. By our actions we have irrevocably tainted this world with death, and so Earthly lives - including the planet itself - are of death and leading towards death.

So, life feeds on life because we took a bite of an apple? Again, I don't see anywhere in the bible where the food chain was ever non-existant. In FACT, it is stated in Genesis that all plants and animals were placed here for our food. Im afraid your bible disagrees with you.