God and evil

[freefallife]

Quote by: JLrep I really don't see the need for brashly attempting to determine just what quantity of evil gives meaning to what quantity of good, or of the peculiar atom analogy. Where is the neutron, indeed.

I simply dismantled the argument that opposition is required for existance. That an equal opposition of good and evil is not required to apprecieate either and I used her own analogy to illustrate it.

No, it all comes down to free will, which I know you are tired of hearing. God made everything good; he did not create evil. He made human beings with free will, and with that free will we decided to sin and turn away from Him. In our sin we tainted all the world with sin. For our sin we deserve nothing but punishment and death, but God in mercy sent Jesus to redeem us of all sin.

Once again, a flawed theistic agument that free will is the justification of evil. Yes, I am quite tired of hearing it. Your argument asserts that earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanoes, flood, cancer and disease are all a product of free will. It holds that due to Adam and eve's sin, millions die each year of diseases, that millions starve because of drought caused famine, that mothers give birth to deformed children doomed to a life of pain. Furthermore it puts a restriction upon god with no support in claiming that god did NOT create everything in the universe. Its really quite simple:

1. God created everything that exists in the universe (premise)
2. Evil exists in the universe (premise)
3. God created evil (conclusion)

Evil, as I stated in the OP, is not just simply sin, but overall human suffering, which can be divided into two general categories. Physical and moral. So, your argument that it simply all comes down to free will is flawed. Jesus may have redeemed you of sin, but why did he not rescue us from shark attacks, leathaly poisonous reptiles and insects, and a world that survives day by day on the destruction of life?

[ItsDarts]

We must have been typing at the same time, you got yours up first and said pretty much what I did so I deleted my rebutle. Good post.

[Jack]

Quote by: loser You cannot have good without evil. You cannot have dark without light. You cannot have life without death. It is the infinitely broad spectrum of life that defines existence. Without evil (and, therfore, no good), you and I would not exist. Without extremes, with just a single point going nowhere, life would be meaningless...no, it would be non-existent.

Quote by: freefallife an equal opposition of good and evil is not required to apprecieate either

I agree with loser but can appreciate what freefallife is suggesting. No, I don't have to have an "equal" amount of one thing to be able to appreciate its opposite. But there does have to be an opposite state to contrast the first state against, or at least the state of absence of that thing. If there were no dark, how would we be able to appreciate light?
Yet this same argument has been used to illustrate the foolishness of the Christian notion of heaven. That's a place where supposedly joy reigns without sadness, light without darkness, sinlessness without sin. Yet the argument above would contend that such a state is impossible, not just to exist but to comprehend, to appreciate. If good cannot exist without the complimentary evil, then it must be so in heaven as it is on Earth.

[JLrep]

Quote by: freefallife Your argument asserts that earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanoes, flood, cancer and disease are all a product of free will. It holds that due to Adam and eve's sin, millions die each year of diseases, that millions starve because of drought caused famine, that mothers give birth to deformed children doomed to a life of pain.

Yes.

Quote by: freefallife Furthermore it puts a restriction upon god with no support in claiming that god did NOT create everything in the universe. Its really quite simple: 1. God created everything in the universe (premise) 2. Evil exists in the universe (premise) 3. God created evil (conclusion)

I contest the wording of your first premise. God created all matter, energy, life, and goodness - the substance of the universe. Evil is not a substance, but a skewing of or lack of something that God has given us (physical and moral evil, respectively). As an analogy, my computer is made up entirely of matter that was created by God - but nowhere are we lead to believe that God created computers whole and complete, as they are. He simply created us with the ability to create them using the materials He made.

[wyoguy]

freefallife: Its really quite simple: 1. God created everything in the universe (premise) 2. Evil exists in the universe (premise) 3. God created evil (conclusion)

You create..... I create...... Other beings are capable of creating..... If you made a vase and somebody came along and cracked it, would it be fair to say that you created a cracked vase? No, of course not. Nor is it fair (or wise) to say that God created a cracked universe. No doubt that it remains that God created Satan and it is by Satan's instigation that the universe is cracked. But God didn't create Satan as the father of lies. He became such through his own volition just as Hitler wasn't born the festering blight on the history of humanity, but that's what he's known as now.

loser: You cannot have good without evil.

I disagree.... more on this later when I've had time to study.

[Jack]

You create..... I create...... Other beings are capable of creating..... If you made a vase and somebody came along and cracked it, would it be fair to say that you created a cracked vase?

That's not a reasonable analogy in my opinion. freefallife's premise, indeed what the Bible teaches, is that everything, every bit of matter, every atom, everything, was created by god. Therefore nothing can exist that he did not create. If something is, it exists as a result of the creative action of god. To then suppose that something could exist (evil, sin, imperfection) that was not created by god either means the premise is false (god did not create everything that exists) or that god created evil, sin and imperfection.

[Muckraker]

Quote by: freefallife 1. God created everything that exists in the universe (premise) 2. Evil exists in the universe (premise) 3. God created evil (conclusion)

I am not a theist but this is the same conclusion I would draw if I was. I don't really see why a theist would think god didn't create evil because questioning that would be to question if god was truly omnipotent.

If god is all knowing then, even though he created humans with free will, he would know every action that every human would ever take. Therefor, he already knew that man would sacrifice paradise in the garden of Eden by exercising his free will and eating of the tree of knowledge. He also knew that his punishment for man would be much of what we consider "evil."

The god of the Christian bible essentially set up a game that was "fixed" from the get go. He created the devil and knew that the devil would tempt man with knowledge. He knew man would choose knowledge. Even before the fall of man, he knew he would wipe us out later on anyway in the great flood. He knew about the whole Jesus biz before he even started on day one of creation.

To say that he didn't know these things would be saying that he himself was limited by one of his own creations - time.

If he knew all of this from the start then why did he bother? We would never, ever surprise him since the game was fixed by him to begin with.

The non-theist answer I have is that he didn't because god was created by man and we infused our own limitations and egos into our creation.

If I was a theist I would say that the mind and intentions of god are too complex for the human brain to comprehend. But we must live our lives trying to understand anyway and live the "good" life so we... get into heaven...? Something like that.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: freefallife Your argument suggests that evil and good are in a perfect state of ballanced opposition, like the positive and negative forces within the atom. But what of the neutron?? If everything in the universe requires a state of opposition, where is the neutrons? So required opposition is simply not the case. Furthermore there are a multitude of evils in the world that your argument fails to address. Those that have no physical or morally good opposition. The death of innocent newborn children, for just one example. Also, as I stated before, a speck of yellow is all that is needed for an appreciation of blue. The balanced forces within the atom or anything else for that matter does not mean that it is necessary for every system of life. Besides, there is far more pain in the world than pleasure. Thus your argument fails. Imagine if your argument were valid. Any increase in the worlds overall good, would create more evil. There would be no reason for any of us to attempt to make the world better. The example works in the opposite as well. There would be no reason whatsoever to try to rid the world of evil because, according to your argument, it would require the reduction of good in the world, thus making the world worse. As I have shown, there is no ballance required between good and evil and furthermore, there is the neutral possibility of neither pain nor pleasure...like the neutron.

#1, #3
Neutron stands for neutral value.
Therefore we can neither take it as a "positive" nor a "negative" value, respectively. I am not sure whether you question Physics or Logic, (both ? ).

#2
I assume that you graduated a primary school, then you should be well familiar with basic notions of Physics with a reference to :
- force applied vs. counter-force, (as a very simplified example)
Does the force applied prompt the counter-force or does not ?
Does not it mean a state of opposition, that needs to be balanced all the time in the Universe we live-in ?

God created Satan ? :-)))
God is taken for "good", while Satan for "evil", respectively, in generalized view.
I am afraid that We - People are (re)creating Satan, everyday. We - People are those "negative values" in reality, while some of us struggle to follow "positive values", everyday. That is the state of opposition that applies to Mankind, (while some of us can be taken as those "good shepherds" and some for "bad devils" - not literally, though).

What makes you think that the Universe we live-in should reflect a state of happiness, only ?
Is there any electron-less atom, in a state of existence, within the Universe we live-in ?

[loser]

So, that's like saying that if everything were blue we should, by your argument, understand neither what color is, nor what blue is.

The concept of color only exists because of the spectrum of color. If everything was blue, there would be no concept of color, only blue.

The problems of evils are not reducable to one singular problem, so you're argument is simply irrelevant to much evil

If there was only one evil, then it could be reduced to one problem. Many problems beget many evils. It's relational and very relevant.

Disease and insanity are evils, and yet health and sanity are possible in the total absence of disease and insanity.

Thanks for making my point and actually clarifying it a bit. Sometimes it is wrong to speak in opposites instead of absences. For example, darkness doesn't exist per se; it is only the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat and so forth for. Is evil just the absence of good? I'm not real sure of that, I guess that's debatable.

Furthermore, if your argument were in any way valid, it would imply the existance of only a speck of pain, not the immense amount of pain suffered in the universe. A speck of yellow is all that is needed for an appreciation of blue and of color in generally.

That's totally ridiculous. My argument provides for the existence of every amount of pain imaginable. The spectrum of life, with opposite extremes, becomes neutral in the middle, with every gradation of good and evil between.

Can it seriously be maintained that if an individual were born crippled and deformed and never in his life expeirienced pleasure, that he could not experience pain even if seriously injured?

You're trying to force impossible conditions. How could he be born crippled and deformed if evil (and, therefore, good) didn't exist? Pain as a concept would be non-existent without something to contrast it to (the absence of pain).

It is clear that pain is possible in the absence of pleasure.

But it is NOT possible in the absence of pain (it's opposite). You either feel pain or you don't.

It may well be that it might not be distinguished by a special name and called "pain", but the state we now describe as a painfull state would nonetheless be possible in the total absence of pleasure. So too the converse would apply. Take the pleasures of taste and smell for example. The existance of these pleasures does not rely upon any prior experience of pain.

Pleasure and pain are not opposites. It's possible to experience pain and pleasure simultaneously...ask any masochist or BDSM disciple.

By your argument, if the first thing you ever felt was pleasure, you wouln't think it felt pleasureable as you had never experienced pain and vice versa. Obviously, as I have shown, this is not the case.

I hope I have cleared it up for you.

Let us consider it a eternal cycle of birth and death.

Just as the world turns, everything in life seems to be cyclic. However, this is only in the material world (universe) that we live in. Even scientists who believe everything was formed during the Big Bang concede that the universe may be receding or will eventually recede back upon itself. If life exists outside of our material universe, the laws pertaining to matter may not apply.

I don't know why God would care what happens when we're alive: the party doesn't start till we're dead.

Unless, of course, what happens when we're alive determines our worth to God after life is over. Think of it in terms of social security: not everyone becomes eligible for it and those that do receive varying amounts depending on just how much they paid in.

Lets take the analogy of without evil there is no good..... NONSENSE!!!!!!!! The other options is "indifference". I'm sitting here typing and I don't feel particularly good and I'm not suffering. I just "am". In contrast, if I were to have a few beers, I may feel more pleasure than I currently feel, which is just "normal". I live my life for the most part in this state, as many of us here do when ever we type on Volconvo. I suspect that tonight, (friday night) many of us will be feeling a bit more pleasure as we drink our beers and play on Volconvo or where ever. THe point is there are "degrees of pain and pleasure".

Which was exactly my point! The spectrum of life has oppositre extremes with every variation in between, including your "neutral" state.

Why would a perfect, all mighty creator of the universe, subject us to greater degrees of pain to the point of death, but not provide us with equal degrees of pleasure to the point of death?

Exactly! Life is, indeed, full of degrees.

I know...I got mine in B/S...

I never heard of anyone dying from too much pleasure, but if its possible, thats the way I want to go.

I think it happens all the time and I agree, what a way to go!

So in conclusion, the "without evil, there is no good argument" fails in light of the fact that an all powerful, all benevolent god could stop things like birthdefects, disease, natural disasters etc...

Ironically, this is exactly what the God of the Bible says that He will do...at His appointed time (not ours). The argument stands...indelibly.

We could say, without God, there is no devil and all pain and pleasure is just a result of our evolution.

We can say many things but life doesn't exist because of us but in spite of us.

freedom13 posted:

The Psychology of Self-Justification http://www.mckenziestudycenter.org/l.../selfjust.html

Thanks for that.

A&E never existed if Evolution is true (and it is) thus, the A&E story is pointless in this argument.

Your opinion cannot invalidate truth. A&E's existence does not depend on what you think and evolution can be wrong no matter who believes it. Your statement is pointless and without merit.

Please define Satanism, because the Satanism that I know of doesn't believe in a deity called Satan, but rather a force of nature with Pagan roots.

Satan, as defined by the Bible, was an angelic being whose pride caused him to rebel against God. Scripture says this about him:

"...At one time, you were perfect, intelligent, and good-looking.
Eze 28:13 You lived in the garden of Eden and wore jewelry made of brightly colored gems and precious stones. They were all set in gold and were ready for you on the day you were born.
Eze 28:14 I appointed a winged creature to guard your home on my holy mountain, where you walked among gems that dazzled like fire.
Eze 28:15 You were truly good from the time of your birth, but later you started doing wicked things..."

At the moment, he is the primary moving 'force' (spiritual power) that guides mankind upon earth. In effect, he rules the earth and is the source of all evil. His days, however, are numbered.

For more, search the Scriptures using keywords like 'devil', 'dragon', and 'serpent'. You should get a good idea of what freedom13 was saying.

If we get back to your god, who is all powerful, why couldn't he get rid of the satan of the bible?

Wrong question. You should ask, "Why DOESN'T He?".

How does this support any "justification" for the evil (suffering) in the world? Please stick to the subject at hand or stay out of the thread.

I'm getting tired of hearing people tell others to "stay out of the thread". It's a PUBLIC FORUM and EVERYBODY has the right to express their opinions, right or wrong, topically or not, even you pricks who say things just as that. Shut up already with your bigoted demands.

That's your opinion, that's not debating.

Debating is nothing but opinions. Good grief! Do you see anyone debating if George Bush is president? No, because it's a fact and hardly debatable. However, asking if Bush is a 'good' president is very debatable and in the realm of opinions, though those opinions may indeed be based on facts.

[loser]

Your argument suggests that evil and good are in a perfect state of ballanced opposition, like the positive and negative forces within the atom. But what of the neutron?? If everything in the universe requires a state of opposition, where is the neutrons?

It's in the very middle of the spectrum. Why do you have a hard time grasping this most simple of concepts? In mathematics, we have a line with a point of origin designated as zero (0), with positive integers to the right of zero and negative integers to the left. A neutron would be represented by zero, as in zero charge.

So required opposition is simply not the case. Furthermore there are a multitude of evils in the world that your argument fails to address. Those that have no physical or morally good opposition. The death of innocent newborn children, for just one example. Also, as I stated before, a speck of yellow is all that is needed for an appreciation of blue. The balanced forces within the atom or anything else for that matter does not mean that it is necessary for every system of life. Besides, there is far more pain in the world than pleasure. Thus your argument fails.

No one's REQUIRING the existence of life. It just IS. Everything does not have to have an exact opposite for exact opposites to exist. Hot has an exact opposite: Cold. Warm has an exact opposite: Cool.

Banana does not have an exact opposite.

Imagine if your argument were valid. Any increase in the worlds overall good, would create more evil. There would be no reason for any of us to attempt to make the world better. The example works in the opposite as well. There would be no reason whatsoever to try to rid the world of evil because, according to your argument, it would require the reduction of good in the world, thus making the world worse.

Once again, you don't have a basic understanding of the Theory of Relativity. An increase in good would result in a decrease in evil and vice-versa: i.e., the amount of good and evil in the universe remains constant.

If a perfect god created everything, then a perfect god created evil.

An example is in order.

You build a perfect wooden fence. Twenty years later, the fence has rotted to the ground. Did you build rot?

Another example. You make (create) a perfect ice cube. It melts. What happened?

I saved the best example for last. You create the perfect sculpture of the love of your life...a giant doobie. I come along and smash it to bits (or smoke it, if you like that analogy better).

One rolls (creates) and another smokes (destroys).

Uhh, I forgot what I was saying...

Why would a perfect, all knowing god bother to put a forbidden fruit that would condemn all of humanity within the reach of his fallible creations.

Why would a perfect, loving, all-knowing wife make friends with the hottest, sleaziest girl on the block and then forbid you to have sex with her? Some things just defy explanation (though she would probably say that she was testing your fidelity).

I simply dismantled the argument that opposition is required for existance. That an equal opposition of good and evil is not required to apprecieate either and I used her own analogy to illustrate it.

You should see by now that you have dismantled nothing. Repeatedly you have been shown the illogic of your argument, haven't you?

Its really quite simple: 1. God created everything that exists in the universe (premise) 2. Evil exists in the universe (premise) 3. God created evil (conclusion)

No, it goes like this:

1. God created fire to keep you warm (good)
2. You stand too close and burn yourself even though God warned you to stay back (bad)
3. God made you (good) but you disobeyed (bad).

Evil, as I stated in the OP, is not just simply sin, but overall human suffering, which can be divided into two general categories. Physical and moral. So, your argument that it simply all comes down to free will is flawed. Jesus may have redeemed you of sin, but why did he not rescue us from shark attacks, leathaly poisonous reptiles and insects, and a world that survives day by day on the destruction of life?

You don't understand evil. Hurricanes, floods, and shark attacks aren't evil...they're just everyday events 'at the office'. Your bad mouthing the boss, that's evil. Your wasting time on the job, that's evil. Your raping the boss' daughter is evil. The boss' daughter having sex with me is good.

Well, anyway, you should get the point. Disasters are not evil. Death is not evil. These things are part of the cycle of life. Most things are relative. Floods kill at the same time that they create life. Fires and volcanoes destroy and they build, all in the same 'breath'. Your death may bring sadness to some and joy to others. Such is life and it's infinite variety. To you, God is a bad thing. To me, He's the best. Different strokes for different folks. I'm looking forward to death. After all, it's the end of pain, isn't it?

The bottom line is that most of the evil that you attribute to God is actually your fault (or some other human being's).

The question you should ask yourself, if there is indeed a Creator God, is why He would allow evil to exist if He could eliminate it? Does He have a purpose in allowing evil? What could He be doing? In doing so, keep in mind the brief and fragile existence that we have been given on earth and the possibility that this life could be quite insignificant compared to a possible life beyond the grave.

[freefallife]

Quote by: loser It's in the very middle of the spectrum. Why do you have a hard time grasping this most simple of concepts? In mathematics, we have a line with a point of origin designated as zero (0), with positive integers to the right of zero and negative integers to the left. A neutron would be represented by zero, as in zero charge.

I don't have a problem grasping simple mathmatical concepts, genius. You completely missed what i was illustrating. Rainbow implied...with HER atom analogy, that a balance of positive and negative...good evil, light and darkness, was present in every system of life. I showed that it was not the case using the neutron and pointing out that NOT everything in the universe has an equal opposite. Perhaps with an ounce of reading comprehension, you would have recognized that.

No one's REQUIRING the existence of life. It just IS. Everything does not have to have an exact opposite for exact opposites to exist. Hot has an exact opposite: Cold. Warm has an exact opposite: Cool. Banana does not have an exact opposite.

And here, you are actually agreeing with my argument...that not everything in the universe has an opposite. What is humorous is that you've somehow mistaken my standpoint and you think we disagree...

Once again, you don't have a basic understanding of the Theory of Relativity. An increase in good would result in a decrease in evil and vice-versa: i.e., the amount of good and evil in the universe remains constant.

Exactly why RAINBOW'S equal opposite argument fails....once again...I understand the theory of relativity, thank you very much. All you are doing here is agreeing with me as you have somehow mistaken my arguments.

You build a perfect wooden fence. Twenty years later, the fence has rotted to the ground. Did you build rot?

To begin with, your analogies are flawed. In creating a fence, it is in no way the same as my creating EVERYTHING in existance. Secondly, if I HAD created a PERFECT fence, the damn thing wouldn't rot, now would it? However, if I were god, I would have had to create rot (evil) in order for it to affect my fence.

Another example. You make (create) a perfect ice cube. It melts. What happened?

Once again, if I were god, I would have had to create heat (evil) in order for the ice to melt.

I saved the best example for last. You create the perfect sculpture of the love of your life...a giant doobie. I come along and smash it to bits (or smoke it, if you like that analogy better).

And once again, if I were god, I would have had to create YOU in order for you to destroy my sculpture. If I hadn't, it would still be perfect.

No, it goes like this: 1. God created fire to keep you warm (good) 2. You stand too close and burn yourself even though God warned you to stay back (bad) 3. God made you (good) but you disobeyed (bad).

Sure, and yet why would a loving god create fire so hot?? Could not an omnipotent being created fire that was just warm enough to keep us warm and not hot enough to cause pain??

Secondly, god has never warned me of the dangers of fire, or anything else for that matter thus invallidating your second premise.

You don't understand evil. Hurricanes, floods, and shark attacks aren't evil...they're just everyday events 'at the office'.

Anything that is characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering is considered to be evil. Look it up...I did.

The bottom line is that most of the evil that you attribute to God is actually your fault (or some other human being's).

The destruction of an entire neighborhood by a tornado is not my fault or anyone elses.

The question you should ask yourself, if there is indeed a Creator God, is why He would allow evil to exist if He could eliminate it?

Do you actually comprehend anything you read? Thats exactly what I set as the topic of debate in the OP? Justify a perfect creator and the existance of evil.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Rainbow #1, #3 Neutron stands for neutral value. Therefore we can neither take it as a "positive" nor a "negative" value, respectively. I am not sure whether you question Physics or Logic, (both ? ).

The only thing I am questioning is your assertion that ALL things require opposites to exist. I asked for the justification of evil, and you responded with this opposition argument. The existance of an equal and opposite force is not necessary for every system of life.

#2 I assume that you graduated a primary school, then you should be well familiar with basic notions of Physics with a reference to : - force applied vs. counter-force, (as a very simplified example) Does the force applied prompt the counter-force or does not ? Does not it mean a state of opposition, that needs to be balanced all the time in the Universe we live-in ?

Why are you theists so condecending. Making remarks like about my level of education is not pertainant to this thread. You're just like loser who wonders why I can't grasp simple mathmatical concepts. Refrain from such childish debate tactics please. I think it is more than evident that I've graduated.

You're assertion is that everything in nature requires an equal opposite. First, your argument fails when applied things of which the laws of physics have no control. Mental health for example. There does not have to be an equal amount of sane and insane people in the world. Obviously, there is no balance.

Secondly, as I stated, if the existance of good and evil DID follow the laws of phisics you cite (that every force has an equal and opposite force) then any increase in one would require the increase of another to maintain the balance you assert. (like YOU said, they must be balanced opposites) If good and evil required a state of opposition that was always ballanced, then attempting to increase the good in the world would require the increase in the evil in the world. There would be no reason to try to make the world a better place. Obviously, that is not the case, your argument is false.

God created Satan ? :-)))

Yes. God created Satan. Why is this so hard to understand? GOD CREATED EVERYTHING!!!!!

What makes you think that the Universe we live-in should reflect a state of happiness, only ?

I never claimed that the world should be in perfect happiness. I assert that the world is full of superfluous evil without justification.

Is there any electron-less atom, in a state of existence, within the Universe we live-in ?

As I have shown, your "state of the atom" analogy is plainly false when attempting to deal justify the existance of evil.

[robby 1957]

Is there such thing as cold . . . . no .. cold is the absence of heat . . . . Is there such thing as darkness . . . . no .. darkness is the absence of light . . . . just as evil is the absence of truth and love .. the absence of God . . . God did not 'create' evil .. God will also not impose his will on you .. He gave you a free will to do good and/or evil . . . . Robby

[loser]

Balance is not the issue, it's irrelevant. The factor Rainbow was referring to was opposing forces.

And once again, if I were god, I would have had to create YOU in order for you to destroy my sculpture. If I hadn't, it would still be perfect.

That's flawed logic. God didn't create anybody on this planet. He created reproducible life. You don't plant every blade of grass in a lawn. You sow seeds and let nature take its course.

Sure, and yet why would a loving god create fire so hot?? Could not an omnipotent being created fire that was just warm enough to keep us warm and not hot enough to cause pain??

The scale of the size of our solar system dictated how hot the sun needed to be. While it's true that under certain conditions the sun's heat can be too much, there are times when it just isn't enough. Variety requires variety of conditions. If it's too hot for you, move to a cooler climate.

Secondly, god has never warned me of the dangers of fire, or anything else for that matter thus invallidating your second premise.

God created a man and a woman with intelligence and the ability to reproduce. He designed them to care for one another and their offspring. He doesn't have to warn every one of us about the dangers of life...he created parents (family) for that purpose.

The destruction of an entire neighborhood by a tornado is not my fault or anyone elses.

But it is subjective as to whether it is an evil thing or not. In my opinion, that could be a good thing.

The existance of an equal and opposite force is not necessary for every system of life.

Nor is the justification of evil necessary for a system of life.

Why are you theists so condecending.

I don't think a condescending attitude is dependent upon a person's religious views. In fact, if you think that atheists are more intelligent than theists, then you would expect atheists to be more condescending. Are you being facetious or do you really believe that theists are smarter than atheists?

You're just like loser...

I don't think you have the right to curse her in that way...totally uncalled for and I expect that she is completely offended by such an offhand and grievous remark.

Yes. God created Satan. Why is this so hard to understand? GOD CREATED EVERYTHING!!!!!

Where did you get this wisdom from? I'm impressed!

I never claimed that the world should be in perfect happiness. I assert that the world is full of superfluous evil without justification.

Such is the way of opinions. I feel that there isn't enough evil in the world and what little there is is definitely justified.

If there's anyone here who doesn't appreciate evil and all the good that it does on the earth, raise your hands.

[linda_mary_13]

I'd like to throw out another perspective. What if the world and flesh we are born into is the evil and life(that which makes us move), is the spirit, is the good. I'd like to define evil as that without The Father. So, we are born with two realities, with The Father, or with the Earth/flesh/world. These realities exist in our thoughts. Feed the flesh or feed the spirit. Free will would have a great impact on distribution of strenghth to each side.Our objective is to return to our nature.Which ever reality we choose defines our nature. So our time on Earth reveals who we are and where we return after death. Only on Earth do we have both natures. Death is the condition of your reality.From death you move to your reality of good nature or bad nature. Where that is, is the unknown, but we do know the characteristics of those natures. Just follow the ultimate of each. They run opposite of each other but move up and down ultimately. Hey, I just realize that image is of the Cross.

[Jack]

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