The Virgin Mary?

[Battig1370]

The Vigin Mary story puzzled me ever since I was young.

Mary discovered that she was pregnant in a culture where she could be stoned to death. It is written that she said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34

My answer to the virgin Mary story does not conform to the traditional religious doctrine. The christian belief is that Mary did not get pregnant from a man, because it is written, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34. This story in the gospel according to Matthew says "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit" > Matt. 1:20

How can this be? My answer may make me look foolish and ignorant. . But first I would appreciate your imput.

[Jack]

Here's some background from the viewpoint of non-belief:

Scripture may have very little to say about Jesus; it has even less to say about his supposed mother. For the earliest Christians ‘Mary Mother of Jesus’ almost did not exist: they were not interested in the nativity of their god-man – it was his re-birth after death that mattered. Paul does not mention Mary (or Joseph) at all, and in the gospels, the shadowy figure of Mary, destined to become the most pre-eminent of all the saints and Queen of Heaven, at best, is a two-dimensional nonentity. In the gospel pageant, ‘Mary’ appears in several scenes. In all of them she is a passive character, habitually in the background and virtually without a voice (she speaks in total three times, twice in a single sentence). She is not described (but then, none of the gospel characters are!); nor do we know her age. She is a bit player, primarily with ‘witnessing’ parts. We learn nothing of her origins, save for the family connection to cousin Elizabeth and as betrothed of Joseph. She appears first in the so-called ‘Annunciation’ (at the well ..?) when an angel maps out her career. With little ado, she accepts the ‘blessed’ role revealed to her (Luke 1.38) and rushes off to spend three months in the mountains with the pregnant Lizzy (she who will mother John the Baptist). In this, her biggest scene, Mary delivers her only set-piece speech (such articulation at this gob-smacking moment!) – the so-called 'Magnificat': My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath helpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. (Luke 1.46,55)

The Mythical Virgin Mary

For comparison:

"And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation. There is none holy as the Lord ...

The bows of the mighty men are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength ... they that were hungry ceased: so that the barren hath born seven; and she that hath many children is waxed feeble.

The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
He raiseth up the poor out of the dust ...

The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces ."
(1 Samuel 2.1,10)

[freedom13]

Quote by: Battig1370 The Vigin Mary story puzzled me ever since I was young. Mary discovered that she was pregnant in a culture where she could be stoned to death. It is written that she said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34 My answer to the virgin Mary story does not conform to the traditional religious doctrine. The christian belief is that Mary did not get pregnant from a man, because it is written, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34. This story in the gospel according to Matthew says "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit" > Matt. 1:20 How can this be? My answer may make me look foolish and ignorant. . But first I would appreciate your imput.

Well, here's somewhat a logical background viewpoint.

Who is the Black Madonna? "Virgin Mary"

She is our Mother Earth, the Female Principle, our Primordial Mother, symbol of Wisdom and integration and resolution of the opposites. Black Madonna As a powerful goddesses of the ancient times, she returns with the sacred characteristics of the Virgin Mary. Metaphorically Virgin, but not in the Patriarchal meaning, for she does not belong to any man, but to all men. She provides life. Men as fruits of the earth come from her and to her we all return, to Mother Nature, to the Goddess-Mother. The story of the Black Madonna has the quality of the profound mysteries. It has therefore a heretical secret which cannot be revealed in writing, but only transmitted by the oral tradition, a privilege of the initiated. From what can be revealed through writing, we have the historical registry which sends us to the worship of Mother Earth, the Great Mother, the Goddess. Darkness precedes light and she is mother. The first wisdom was dark and feminine, eternal womb which in the religious African tradition is represented by the female ancestral power.

Isis and Horus

The Goddess Mothers in the Christian World With the beginning of the Christian era, so started the declines of the deities of all the Mother Earths. Yet not even Paul, the Apostle, was able to completely prevent her worship. She was Diana in the Roman world, the goddess. The three great goddesses of the East, Isis, Cybele and Diana of Ephesus, were represented as being black, established themselves in the East before the Romanization. It is usually a consensus that the first images of the Black Madonna and her divine son were representations of Isis and Horus. In the last centuries of the Roman rule, the East welcomed Isis as the great universal goddesses. Isis reigned in Paris, until she was Christianly replaced by Saint Genevieve, her present patroness.

African Featues of Jesus and Mary

The Black Madonna In Europe Black Madonna is a nickname used in Europe. It refers to the skin tones of Mary and the baby Jesus. Mary, Jesus, St. Joseph lived in a hot arid climate. Their skin tone would be dark brown or olive in order to survive the intensity of the sun and avoid skin cancer. It wasn't until the Renaissance that they begin to have paintings of Jesus and Mary with alabaster skin, blue eyes and blond hair. Previously, all religious artwork reflected the olive skin, black or brown hair and eyes of the Holy Family and the Apostles.

[Zhavric]

The virgin mary story (and Christianity, itself) only makes sense if viewed through the proper context: a tall tale created around 70 ce in an attempt to rally/unify the Jews who were being oppressed by the Romans.

Christ needed to be everything to everyone. Fully human and fully god. Born into humble surroundings, but also heir the line of King David. The list goes on, but those four things are significant to this discussion because they explain why Mary had to be a virgin. We need Jesus to be fully the son of god so Mary couldn't have conceived with her natural husband... but we need the husband around so that Jesus can be of the line of David. Everything else that came afterwards is a lame justification for this nonsense.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Battig1370 The Vigin Mary story puzzled me ever since I was young. Mary discovered that she was pregnant in a culture where she could be stoned to death. It is written that she said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34 My answer to the virgin Mary story does not conform to the traditional religious doctrine. The christian belief is that Mary did not get pregnant from a man, because it is written, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34. This story in the gospel according to Matthew says "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit" > Matt. 1:20 How can this be? My answer may make me look foolish and ignorant. . But first I would appreciate your imput.

The way I see it, the people that wrote the books in the NT didnt grow up with Jesus family. Its safe to also assume that its improtant doctrine either.

[linda_mary_13]

I think it's important to remember that Jesus came to fulfill the scripture. Mary was a virgin and a faithful Jew. Her pregnancy was not questioned because the circumstance was appropriate. Mary had twins. Jesus is not evident until he is 12 years old in the scriptures. The scriptures are written after Jesus death, so when retrospectively looking back the authors write, regarding Jesus, starting at birth. Mary and Joseph were devout Jews and the representation of their life is accurately portrayed, but the actual mental consception of Jesus does'nt occur until he is a youth.So, the physical consception and the actual consception are separate.Jesus was sent by his Father. I would suggest he occupied the body after birth rather than during birth. To anyone unaware of this, which everyone was, Mary and Joseph would appear a normal Jewish family, respected in their faith as following the laws, which would mean that Mary was a virgin at the time of the consception.

[Turismo2029]

Joseph took Marys virginity, the end. >_>

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Turismo2029 Joseph took Marys virginity, the end. >_>

Yeah, cause you must know what happend 2000 years ago sooo well.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 I think it's important to remember that Jesus came to fulfill the scripture. Mary was a virgin and a faithful Jew. Her pregnancy was not questioned because the circumstance was appropriate. Mary had twins. Jesus is not evident until he is 12 years old in the scriptures. The scriptures are written after Jesus death, so when retrospectively looking back the authors write, regarding Jesus, starting at birth. Mary and Joseph were devout Jews and the representation of their life is accurately portrayed, but the actual mental consception of Jesus does'nt occur until he is a youth.So, the physical consception and the actual consception are separate.Jesus was sent by his Father. I would suggest he occupied the body after birth rather than during birth. To anyone unaware of this, which everyone was, Mary and Joseph would appear a normal Jewish family, respected in their faith as following the laws, which would mean that Mary was a virgin at the time of the consception.

Personally, I dont think it was to 'fill' the scriptures as much as it was to fill the prophcies of the Old Testiment. If that was the case then we would not have the cannon going on after his death. There wouldnt even be this Book of Revelation that is the 'supposed' end of the Bible.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Battig1370 It is written that she said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34

Think, and you have got the answer.

[loser]

The Vigin Mary story puzzled me ever since I was young... My answer to the virgin Mary story does not conform to the traditional religious doctrine...How can this be? My answer may make me look foolish and ignorant. . But first I would appreciate your imput.

After the comments that you have already witnessed, how could you still worry that your answer would make you "look foolish and ignorant."

For centuries, the idea of a virgin birth has been ridiculed by an elite group thinking themselves wise. However, it takes a pretty ignorant person to believe that way in today's world. The ability of women to have children without a male sperm donor is now common knowledge.

" The technology to produce artificial sperm, or even create offspring from two females, is already in the pipeline;...A surprising number of animals can reproduce without male involvement if there is no other option. Sharks and lizards have demonstrated this ability in captivity. It was previously believed that the process was impossible in mammals such as humans because male sperm cells and female egg cells undergo a process called imprinting. In imprinting, sections of each cell’s genome are silenced to allow the set of genes from the other parent to be expressed, so that when the egg and sperm cells combine, the genes in the resulting embryo are not competing with each other.

It has now been discovered that it is possible to interrupt this process by deleting just two sections of genetic material on the genomes of female mice – animals very similar, for reproductive purposes, to humans. Immature egg cells that have not begun any of the rest of the imprinting process are fused with a mature egg from another mouse, and activated by an electric current to begin dividing. These new cells will produce a ball of cells just like a normal early embryo.

Elsewhere, producing a child that is the genetic offspring of two females is becoming a real possibility – and the process is not nearly as difficult as was previously thought. Artificial sperm produced from bone-marrow cells has already led to pregnancies and live births in mice. Last summer a Japanese team announced that female mice had been made pregnant using cells from other females, and given birth to completely healthy babies. The success rate was about one in five, roughly the same as that achieved by human infertility clinics. The only drawback was that the baby mice grew into adults that were on average 20% smaller than normal mice, but the researchers expect to rectify this problem once the imprinting process is better understood. Their message is that there is nothing unique provided by the male in sexual reproduction – only properly imprinted chromosomes for the production of a new human baby.

Homo erectus extinctus - Times Online

In short, men are no longer needed in order for procreation to occur. Mary's virgin birth, it seems, was not all that incredible, after all.

[grandpa]

Quote by: loser After the comments that you have already witnessed, how could you still worry that your answer would make you "look foolish and ignorant." For centuries, the idea of a virgin birth has been ridiculed by an elite group thinking themselves wise.

Personally, I don't see how "virgin birth" stories have anything much to offer in the "wisdom" department. It's also true that Christians deem themselves as part of a certain desired group.

Grandpa h.

[loser]

The point was that the virgin birth story of Mary and Jesus was ridiculed on the grounds of it being scientifically impossible. We now know that it is very possible, after all. Hence, people thinking themselves wise when they were not wise, after all.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: loser The point was that the virgin birth story of Mary and Jesus was ridiculed on the grounds of it being scientifically impossible. We now know that it is very possible, after all. Hence, people thinking themselves wise when they were not wise, after all.

What a dishonest sentiment? What an intellectually bankrupt line of reasoning? I'm in awe that you'd even deign to present it. As though scientific achievements that were fictional as recently as a few decades ago can excuse mythology from 2000 years ago.

What did you have planned for an encore? A link to a website about tasers with a rousing explanation about how hand held electricity guns "prove" that it was possible for Zeus to hurl bolts of lightning at people?

Loser, I invite you to consider the special pleadings you're invoking here. It's become obvious from this thread and others that you're more than willing to stretch and break the boundaries of intellectual honesty to try to get a point across. Before you make a claim, please make sure it can be supported.

[Jack]

Mary's virgin birth, it seems, was not all that incredible, after all.

Interesting articles on emerging science, but the event in the OP supposedly occurred 2000 years ago.

[Battig1370]

The Mary's Immaculate Conception story puzzled me ever since I was young. Christians don't seem to have a problem with the concept that Jesus was born of the Immaculate Conception. From what is written in Matt. 1:20 > "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit." and Mary discovered that she was pregnant in a culture where she could be stoned to death. It is written that she say said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34. Jesus is not the only savior/deity that has the reputation of being born of a virgin. A couple of examples are Mithra and Attis and their are more.

Persian Pagan Religion: > Mithra was a Persian savior. Worship of Mithra became common throughout the Roman Empire, particularly among the Roman civil service and military. Mithraism was a competitor of Christianity until the 4th century. Their god was believed to have been born on Dec-25, circa 500 BCE. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and by gift-carrying Magi. During his life, he performed many miracles, cured many illnesses, and cast out devils. He celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples. He ascended to heaven at the time of the spring equinox, about March 21.

Roman Pagan Religion: > Attis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on Dec-25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about Mar-25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the underworld. On Sunday, he arose, as the solar deity for the new season. His followers tied an image of Attis to a tree on "Black Friday," and carried him in a procession to the temple. His body was symbolically eaten by his followers in the form of bread.

The Roman Empire's belief systems had a great influence in saying how Jesus was conceived and when He was born.
It is written "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit." and Christians believe this to the Immaculate Conception that is without a human male sperm impergnating the egg in Mary. Also this conclusion come from that Mary said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34.

Lets examine the Christian belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary without her consent. The reason I say, "without her consent" is that it is written, "How can this be?" --- 'God is Holy and God is Spirit' > John 4:24 What is the Christian definition of being Holy? The definition holiness is same wether it's attibuted to man or spirit. The Spirit or the Man that impregnated Mary 'without her consent' is in violation of any form of holiness and those that do believe that was an act of holiness are very much in error. Mary was not impregnated by the Holy Spirit or a Holy Man, but it's very understandable a man took advantage of Mary without her having any knowledge what has occurred to her. What may have happened is that a man found Mary in a deep sleep and he gently impregnated her without her having any knowledge of this occurrence. This why it is written that Mary said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

The book of the genealogy of Jesus is written in the beginning of 'The Gospel According to Matthew'. From Abraham to David and down to Jesus are 42 generations. "Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus" As written, the genealogy (DNA) of Jesus is through Joseph all the way back to Abraham.

Attention Christians; The Holy Spirit did not become united with Jesus until He had been baptized at the Jordan river as written in Matt. 3:16 -17, Mark 1:10 -11, Luke 3:22, and John 1:29 - 34. Jesus saw the Spirit of God which is the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Him. A voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." It was at this time that the Holy Spirit came down to be united with Jesus. Because of this event Jesus was called the Son of God, the Lamb of God, the Son of Man, the Anointed One, and the Christ which means the Messiah. This is when "the Word became united flesh/human and dwelt among us, > John 1:1-14 > "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." --- "And the Word became flesh/human and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father." > John 1:1-14

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Battig1370 Lets examine the Christian belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary without her consent. The reason I say, "without her consent" is that it is written, "How can this be?" --- 'God is Holy and God is Spirit' > John 4:24 What is the Christian definition of being Holy? The definition holiness is same wether it's attibuted to man or spirit. The Spirit or the Man that impregnated Mary 'without her consent' is in violation of any form of holiness and those that do believe that was an act of holiness are very much in error. Mary was not impregnated by the Holy Spirit or a Holy Man, but it's very understandable a man took advantage of Mary without her having any knowledge what has occurred to her. What may have happened is that a man found Mary in a deep sleep and he gently impregnated her without her having any knowledge of this occurrence. This why it is written that Mary said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

Any attorney at Volcanvo forum ?
Just feel free to charge and/or sue that guy, please. Battig1370 is going to testify and provide the exact data on that guy (who took advantage of Mary).

[linda_mary_13]

The Holy Spirit is female.?

[freedom13]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 The Holy Spirit is female.?

Isis is a goddess in Egyptian mythology. She is the wife and sister of Osiris and mother of Horus, and was worshipped as the archetypal wife and mother. Isis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[crayola]

What was "conceived" in Mary was the idea, the ideology, the thing established at the beginning by which the priesthood was developed and called "anointed". This is called "of the holy spirit" for God established it as his "elect" and "chosen" people and as His inheritance. The body of priests being portrayed accounts for that which was conceived from the beginning. Jesus the man child would raise-up this dead body of priests to be exalted above every name in Israel.

Mary had known no man before Joseph. The story is open to interpretation. This interpretation of how the ideology of the priesthood was conceived through Mary's lineage and she the vessel, sounds more plausable because it presents Mary as a virgin until she married Joseph and gave birth to Jesus. Nothing extraordinary, no miraculous birth. Setting presidence in the standard arrangement of who's who in Israel. Mary carried the Levite heritage that was "conceived" at the beginning and of which Levi was the only name anointed for the family line of priests in Israel. This is what Jesus stood for and raised that standard from the dead, because in Jesus day the Levite priesthood was not in power at Jerusalem, and so that it should not die a second time, but live forever, the ideology was reinforced in the exalted "Christ", the anointed body.

Also consider that the purpose of Jesus was to overthrow the power of reigning priests at Jerusalem and sit down on the right hand of God on the throne of the New Jerusalem. "and if I cast out demons by the word of God, the kingdom of God is come unto you". The victory was stated in the only begotten son who was chosen as the elect at the beginning and in name of the Levitical priests, and by which Jesus was "conceived" in that ideology. Jesus being not in representation of himself alone but of the others in that lineaged line of Levite priests. Theirs was the kingdom as given to them and no others. They alone had right to the priesthood because it was given and covenanted only to them. And they alone were a one body called anointed, and called "Christ". (Christians)