The Jews: Wealthy, Powerful, Islamic Terrorism & Messiah!

[robby 1957]

the church of Christ has brought more suffering to the world then any other faith ??? . . . . can you explain this .. are you talking about the Catholic church ?? .. where and when have Christians brought suffering ??

[Ken Carman]

I doubt whether one; or a group, is rich and powerful has much to do with accepting the premise that Christ was the Messiah, or not. Rich and poor have accepted commonly held beliefs regarding him... or not.


One thing I refuse to do, is use the common phrase "accept (or reject) Christ." If you come up to me and say you think your divine and I disagree that doesn't mean I "reject you." It just means I don't accept your premise. That's a tactic that has been used for a long time to shame others into agreeing with them. It's part of the "agree with us or else" threat.

[robby 1957]

Sorry dude . . . but you got it all wrong . . . nobody is 'threatening' you . . . the terms of Christianity are set by Jesus Christ, not Christians . . . Jesus said "he that is not with me is against me .. he that gathers not with me. scatters abroad" . . . the choice is yours . . . :) Robby

[robby 1957]

Dear Derach . . . . Why do you think that Christians are 'jackasses' ??? .. more details please

[Matt W]

Let's stay on-topic, people.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: robby 1957 Sorry dude . . . but you got it all wrong . . . nobody is 'threatening' you . . . the terms of Christianity are set by Jesus Christ, not Christians . . . Jesus said "he that is not with me is against me .. he that gathers not with me. scatters abroad" . . . the choice is yours . . . :) Robby

Note: when I first posted this I missed the posting previous to mine because I was reponding to the person who responded to my post.. My apolgies. I realized I had gone a tad OT so I rephrased the last para. Hope it was enough.

Sorry, "Dude," you've got it wrong.

Sure he said that? How can you be sure? Tell me what, find the original text of the bible that says he says that and you might be closer to "proving it." Problem is, we don't have it. This is something that was copied, with multiple errors, corrections and errors over a long period of time. Before that document, that no one has, it was by word of mouth... otherwise it was lion time.

The books that make up the bible come down from a multitude of tracts that different sects of Christianitt put out including what has been referred to as Adoptionists, Gnostics, Docetists, Separationists (some Gnostic sects were included here, some not) and many others.

The text has been altered so many times that some Scribes corrected others, like a page from the fourth century Codex Vaticanus where a Scribe left a note for the previous Scribe calling him a "fool" and a "knave" for altering the text.

So, "Dude," be thoust not so smug in thinking you know exactly what Jesus may, or may not, have said.

You also misunderstand, apparently, my comment in regard to "reject." If a Jew, or anyone, does not accept that the Messiah is the Messiah he is disagreeing with what people claim Jesus was... that is all. That is not a "rejection." It is a disagreement. To turn it into a personal rejection... well that's decided by whomever one disagrees with, not by the person who disagrees. Period.

[Charlatan]

Well the testimony of those that foresaw the messaih, how did they arrive by them? Did they all sit down and decide that this should be the case? They didn't say God told them, so they must have deducted that that would be the case, so they drew up a few requirements for the man. Without special abilities, how would he make people listen? He must be well educated, and pure of heart, but if He was pure of heart, would He not join the missionary and work with people that needed Him? To get anywhere in politics you need to be corrupt, moving people through scripture is easy, but getting them to vote for you is quite another. He would quickly be assisnated by those hanging onto their corruption, so wouldn't get anywhere impressionable if He was pure of heart.

Maybe He is not pure of heart. Let's say He thinks that unifying the world was for His own gain, then would He be the son of man? Bringing peace to the world is too much for a world that blames all it's problems on someone else, and seeing as how countries wil always be wanting more than they can provide for themselves, they will look to war to get it. Think about it, say a state runs out of things, will it just sit there or invade another for material gain? In poorly managed states they are running out of credit with the world bank, so will use what little is left to invade another country and steal as much as they can, while many untapped resources are in their very own country, but will not let anyone in to get them because they are theirs, and don't have any credit left to loan some money and use them, so war is imminent, huge wars, especially in Africa. If anything I can't see there being peace for too long, and then someone will unite the poverty stricken world? Poverty in rural areas is acceptable, but not for urbanised people, they will turn on each other refusing to go back to rural areas and live without all the comforts of the city.

Changing people, now how will he do that? To have peace and erect a new church you need to be able to change people's perspective to one that sees all others as equals. How will this happen, with a winning smile? He will have to be able to understand all people and change their habits, but they won't change for the sake of one person's gratitude, they will need something in it for them, then they will tolerate each other for a while, until tolerance runs out due to their own leaders greed influencing their opinions. How will He handle that, the politics? Politics is founded on trade, trade between people and state, and trade between states, otherwise there is no need for politics. Owrds of wisdom are often ignored, especially today.

He would need to be inspired by God to do such things, and need a good education, be multi cultured, and be able to avoid the assasins bullets or become corrupted also. With global warming, we only have a few decades until things warm up too much to live here, so the clock is ticking.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Charlatan Well the testimony of those that foresaw the messaih, how did they arrive by them? Did they all sit down and decide that this should be the case? They didn't say God told them, so they must have deducted that that would be the case, so they drew up a few requirements for the man. Without special abilities, how would he make people listen? He must be well educated, and pure of heart, but if He was pure of heart, would He not join the missionary and work with people that needed Him? To get anywhere in politics you need to be corrupt, moving people through scripture is easy, but getting them to vote for you is quite another. He would quickly be assisnated by those hanging onto their corruption, so wouldn't get anywhere impressionable if He was pure of heart. Maybe He is not pure of heart. Let's say He thinks that unifying the world was for His own gain, then would He be the son of man? Bringing peace to the world is too much for a world that blames all it's problems on someone else, and seeing as how countries wil always be wanting more than they can provide for themselves, they will look to war to get it. Think about it, say a state runs out of things, will it just sit there or invade another for material gain? In poorly managed states they are running out of credit with the world bank, so will use what little is left to invade another country and steal as much as they can, while many untapped resources are in their very own country, but will not let anyone in to get them because they are theirs, and don't have any credit left to loan some money and use them, so war is imminent, huge wars, especially in Africa. If anything I can't see there being peace for too long, and then someone will unite the poverty stricken world? Poverty in rural areas is acceptable, but not for urbanised people, they will turn on each other refusing to go back to rural areas and live without all the comforts of the city. Changing people, now how will he do that? To have peace and erect a new church you need to be able to change people's perspective to one that sees all others as equals. How will this happen, with a winning smile? He will have to be able to understand all people and change their habits, but they won't change for the sake of one person's gratitude, they will need something in it for them, then they will tolerate each other for a while, until tolerance runs out due to their own leaders greed influencing their opinions. How will He handle that, the politics? Politics is founded on trade, trade between people and state, and trade between states, otherwise there is no need for politics. Owrds of wisdom are often ignored, especially today. He would need to be inspired by God to do such things, and need a good education, be multi cultured, and be able to avoid the assasins bullets or become corrupted also. With global warming, we only have a few decades until things warm up too much to live here, so the clock is ticking.

Paragraph 1...

Your assuming that these testimonies have not been altered or added at a later time: that every one was exactly as written. (In which version? There are many, even if we totally ignore all the versions not allowed into print, burned, buried... People look upon it as "the bible." To be accurate it's "bibles."

All the paras in the middle...

I assumed you were responding to me, but these paras seem gibberish in nature. Maybe this post was responding directly to others.

Next to last paras...

I'm assuming you're talking about Jesus here.

I have seen many semi/self educated people win over others with little but a smile and charisma. This does not negate what they say.

If your talking about an actual, physical church, there's no indication he ever physically did so. Now to inspire, and declare someone "the rock," yes... with what words we are given, he did say that. many claim that's building a church. Odd words for a carpenter's "son." (According to standard theology... no. Joseph had nothing to do with it. But that's another discussion.) You would think for someone raised in such a family they would choose their words more carefully... or maybe, once again, this is parable/comparison... etc.? That seems the most likely.

He didn't handle the politics very well, did he? Despite all indications he knew this was what had to happen, look what did happen. If that happened to someone involved in any kind of politics these days we wouldn't consider it success. But... the long term goals were far more important.

I'm not sure about the global warming (I prefer "climate change", myself. More accurate.) has to do with this. I have seen people inspired by things other than God do big, sometimes even quite evil, things. (Jonestown is a good example.)

Now... to try to bring us back OT, I'm not sure what this has to so with Jews having money and therefore not needing to believe Jesus is the Messiah, which to me is a bogus premise to start.

A. There are plenty of rich people who believe.
B. Jews and "money" strikes me as more than a bit of an over the top stereotype. I've known poor ones, middle class ones...
C. Israel is amidst a sea of hate: has been for a long time. Add to this the perception that terroristic tactics are pretty much all that's left to the Palestineans: especially the most radical ones. So being Jewish has far less to do with any of this than that dynamic, and the fact that this state was carved out of a region that many, right or wrong, feel was already populated by those who consider themselves disenfranchised...at best.

[Derach]

my previous post was unclear ... sorry

I didn't mean all christians are jackasses at all ...

A small percentage of Christians I have met are jackasses ... but because I know so many Christians, there are more of those jackasses than the relatively few Jew jackasses that I know. I imagine the proportion of jew jerks to christian jerks is the same though.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Derach my previous post was unclear ... sorry I didn't mean all christians are jackasses at all ... A small percentage of Christians I have met are jackasses ... but because I know so many Christians, there are more of those jackasses than the relatively few Jew jackasses that I know. I imagine the proportion of jew jerks to christian jerks is the same though.

I don't know. Not even sure if male or female. I'm a little afraid of trying to find out. When confronted by a jackass it's probably unwise to lift the leg and check!!!!!!!!!!

[bombmaniac]

the jews don't belive that jesus was the messiah because jesus was jewish and by thir standards he was an outcast and a misguided soul

[bombmaniac]

quoted from robby 1957 "the church of Christ has brought more suffering to the world then any other faith ??? . . . . can you explain this .. are you talking about the Catholic church ?? .. where and when have Christians brought suffering ??"

i dont know, crusades, pogroms...

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: bombmaniac the jews don't belive that jesus was the messiah because jesus was jewish and by thir standards he was an outcast and a misguided soul

I believe that may be a bit of an over generalization. Was he an outcast? Some thought so, but if the various crowds that surrounded him and his followers... obviously not all either treated him that way or thought of him that way.

Ditto: "misguided."

Past his era many didn't, and don't, believe because they don't think he fulfilled the prophecies regarding him and what would happen after. Argue, if you wish, that he did... or didn't... but that's not the point. It's what they believe(d). Many do believe, however, he was a great prophet.

Now, when it comes to the authority elements within Judaism, yes, he was by most considered to be an outcast, and probably considered misguided, I'm sure. But that's not the same as Jews, overall.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: bombmaniac quoted from robby 1957 "the church of Christ has brought more suffering to the world then any other faith ??? . . . . can you explain this .. are you talking about the Catholic church ?? .. where and when have Christians brought suffering ??" i dont know, crusades, pogroms...

Perhaps he means the actual "Church of Christ?" Of course then we have the more fundamentalistic one that's very active in the South (I think they may outdo the hard shell Baptists in many ways) or the Congregationalists who also call themselves "Church of Christ." I suppose The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" might be included, if we widen the title a tad?

I'm guessing he doesn't mean specifically Catholic, since they usually don't refer to themselves as "Church of Christ."

Maybe he just means "organized religion?"

Good question, Mr. Bomb.

Care to clarify, Robby?