Why God is of Questionable Character

[Lullaby Chainer]

With weary permission, I'm recreating this thread maturely. I know, wish me luck.

In previous threads I've explained why I don't believe in God.

Now, I'm going to explain why God, the fictional character, is a jerk. Feel free to defend him.. 'cause I guarantee he won't be able to defend himself.

Please note.. Yes, he's not real.. and I wouldn't be so angry if it weren't for all the fundamentals killing people for this imaginary jerk.


Crimes against others.. God will forgive. (murder, rape, genocide, torture)

Crimes against God.. God will not forgive. (atheism)

Isn't this cowardly of God?

He's basically saying.. "you just raped that already emotionally-troubled innocent girl? It's ok, just believe in my son and I forgive you." Forgive you? For something you did to someone else?

But as soon as you pull it around and he's the victim.. that's a huge no-no that deserves only the most terrible of infinite eternal torturing punishment.

Now Hell.. that's another big problem. I've once stated that the only being deserving of Hell is God. I stick by that statement. The only being that deserves Hell is a being that would create it in the first place. There's NOTHING you can do with your finite time on earth that deserves a torturing punishment that doesn't ever ever end. I'm not saying evil people shouldn't be punished, but I am saying infinity is a long time for a finite sin.

Next, Why is God so cowardly that he can't take the heat for sin. For eff's sake.. Adam and Eve? He claims to be omniscient, yet he has people believing he didn't actually plan for Adam and Eve to eat the naughty fruit. He designed the whole set up.. right down to a freaking fruit that would damn us all to suffering in the first place. To say he didn't specifically design and plan for there to be sin is to insult his omniscience.. yet HE HIMSELF won't take the blame. God framed Adam and Eve.

Lastly, God has people hating gays when he himself created the biological dispositions that cause most gays to be biologically gay. This is ridiculous, and in my opinion, worthy of contempt. Not to mention all the other hateful, sick, pseudo-moral nonsense in the OT.

Can you defend God?

Edit: Please note.. I'm not attacking religious people.. I'm attacking only God.

[HelioPrime]

Since nobody know the true nature of any god then we can't defend attacks that might or might not be accurate.

[gela]

I agree with you lullaby. Especialy about the hell thing.
My dads an atheist, and I when I was little and being taught religion at school it terrified me that he will spend eternity in hell.
I see god as a bully - threatening people to be good, otherwise you will go to hell. Its a religion based on fear.

But, because I still refuse to believe that life is just science I turned Buddhism.
Ok, I don't know any of the intricate details or teaching of buddhism, but I do know the basics. They believe in reincarnation, and they belive that every soul has the chance to eventualy reach nirvana.
Basicly, throughout your life you build up good karma or bad karma - either will afect your life as you are living it, but when you die, if you had bad karma you go to a temporary hell, before being riencarnated as a lesser being (a dog or something..). If you have good karma you go to heaven for a little while before being sent back to earth as a higher being (a millionare.?).
Soo yeah, its about choosing what to believe. Believing that we die and our soul doesnt exist depresses me, Believing that if I do some things wrong I will be sent to hell- and believing that my unreligious family will be sent to hell also depresses me. So I choose to believe that every soul has a chance for redemption.


Also - life doesn't realy have a definitive evil and good. Its like in western tv shows - generaly there will be a bad guy, who is just evil. There isn't realy a reason for it - his just bad. Life isn't like that - no one consideres themself 'evil'. Everyone has a reason for their actions. I think this trend is a result of the christian religion - it doesn't promote understanding of your enermies at all, it promotes people to assume they are just evil.

In anime we generaly see much more balanced bad guys - who actualy have a reason for being bad, and who are normaly pittied because its completely understood why they turned out that way. Sometimes people even take the bad guys side - sometimes the bad guy isn't even clear - its just a clashing of two perfectly reasonable opinions and values. The dominant religion in japan is buddhism.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: gela Believing that we die and our soul doesnt exist depresses me, Believing that if I do some things wrong I will be sent to hell- and believing that my unreligious family will be sent to hell also depresses me. So I choose to believe that every soul has a chance for redemption.

Here is the core of every religion:hope (Nietzche). But on my side I'm existentialism. I think I'm flesh and bones, I've got free will, I'm just an animal doing caffeine. Is it depressive? No, it is optimistic just like Sartre explains in "Existentialism is a humanism". And above all, it's real. I don't believe in it because it sounds conforting to me, nor because I want to, but because it makes sense.
But buddhism is interesting because it can be interpreted both as a religion or a philosophy. But in any way it doesn't fit with me.

[Jack]

I'm not attacking religious people.. I'm attacking only God.

Actually you're attacking the image of god as painted by believers. As I've said before, if you're going to invent a god that's supposed to be perfect, at least make him better than you. The Biblical god is barely distinguishable from the males in the society that produced him. You can't attack a fictional character.

[HelioPrime]

Ya know defining the character of something is a human construct. We invented the pros and cons of someone's character and not everyone agrees on what they would be.

With that in mind we could not possibly question the character of a god or the defined god as written. Because as is written that god came before man and mans decision to define the character of an object.

It's like man saying the sea is evil and cruel even thought the sea has existed long before man.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Isherwood Actually you're attacking the image of god as painted by believers.

What else could be meant by "God"?

[ChinUp]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer What else could be meant by "God"?

O I don't know. How about cool, or wow or amazing or indescribable or whatever you cant describe !!!

It is the mentality of theists to avoid facing the reality that they do not know what God is, & opt for the deity option rather than admit they don't have an answer for everything..

IMO anyone who lets people tell them what God is, is a tool.

• Atheism places reason as the ultimate authority
• Theism places scripture as the ultimate authority

If you think you can learn what God is from a book, or think people are experts, authorities on God you are very easily fooled.

"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
rather than truth as the authority" ~Gerald Massey

[Winter wind]

The politically correct version, don't you love it?

Quote by: lc Firstly, feeling sorry for doing something doesn't guarantee you'll stop doing it. So your statement is just plain false.

Ya, I know it doesn't, but it means you are attempting to become better. All you need is that help and that's where God comes in...

Quote by: lc Secondly, that's like saying someone should be forgiven of rape because they started going to feminist meetings. Nay, it's like saying someone should be forgiven of rape because they felt sorry for doing it. Aw, poor you.. you feel sorry for raping a girl or murdering a child so I'm going to forgive you??

Well it depends: if the person is genuinely sorry, has changed themselves, then it wouldn't be easy, but ideally why not forgive them.

but if the person just says sorry like a four year old, but isn't really, God can tell.

Quote by: lc That makes no sense. I mentally can't ask something I don't believe in to forgive me for not believing in it.

It was just an intellectual quip. Obviously you can't ask forgiveness from something you don't believe, but that is why, logically, it is a capital crime. because if all you have to do to get forgiveness is to ask for it, the group of people who can't ask for forgiveness get the fuzzy end of the lollipop.

Again, not what I believe, but the logical argument.

Quote by: lc You're one who follows christ. I don't have a problem with that. I give you a hard time about it 'cause you twist and edit Christianity so much I just wish you'd let go of it completely and use your obviously independent pure moral compass without veiling it with a religion.. that's all..

Naw, Christianity is all that bad. All you see when you research is the worst of it. Also, I have the quotes where the Bible tells you not to take the old testament too seriously.

"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

If you want the full argument go here
Picking and choosing the Bible
Hebrew 8:13

Quote by: lc He's being a pussy. He's forgiving you for killing, raping, and torturing others while the only thing he won't forgive you for is denying him.. which doesn't even necessarily entail hurting others in the process.

In my opinion, that isn't pussy, thats just being an ass, but back to the actual debate...

It's bizarre, i know. But I think it comes down to the argument above...

forgiveness to those who ask and mean it. But those who don't believe won't ask and mean it.

Again, i don't believe it, but its the argument.

Quote by: lc I'm not criticizing the allowance of sin. I'm criticizing God for not taking the heat for it. He has to blame it on his measly two creations like a little wuss.

my view of the Bible is that it was meant to be as smart as the person reading it. For instance, he blames his creations simply because they need to know they can't pass of their new knowledge. That now that they have the knowledge, they are responsible. Taking the heat or not taking the heat matters little to Adam and Eve. To them, all that matters is now that they have the knowledge, they are responsible.

It's the practical vs ethical thing....

Quote by: lc That's very vague. What's not vague is when the Bible says it's the perfect word of God.

But my way is much more logical. (and my new quotes are much clearer)
Your way: Bible is indisputable, but has all contradictions
Ergo: Bible is stupid

My way: Bible says to interpret it and not take it seriously, therefore contradictions, including the one saying "im absolute law" are accounted for

Ergo: The Bible needs to be read as metaphoric. Then it makes more sense.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: gela But, because I still refuse to believe that life is just science I turned Buddhism. Ok, I don't know any of the intricate details or teaching of buddhism, but I do know the basics. They believe in reincarnation, and they belive that every soul has the chance to eventualy reach nirvana.

This is why i think Buddhism is awesome. One of the most logical religions (actually really isn't much of a religion) plus, you can be Christian and a Buddhist at the same time (to a point).

Quote by: gela In anime we generaly see much more balanced bad guys - who actualy have a reason for being bad, and who are normaly pittied because its completely understood why they turned out that way. Sometimes people even take the bad guys side - sometimes the bad guy isn't even clear - its just a clashing of two perfectly reasonable opinions and values. The dominant religion in japan is buddhism.

sounds like death note
I've noticed this, and i always wondered if it was connected to eastern philosophy (by the by, the dominate religion in japan is more Shintoism isn't it?)

Quote by: isherwood Actually you're attacking the image of god as painted by believers. As I've said before, if you're going to invent a god that's supposed to be perfect, at least make him better than you. The Biblical god is barely distinguishable from the males in the society that produced him. You can't attack a fictional character.

you certainly can (just watch lullaby or the critics attack all kinds of books and movies)
Plus, you can attack a fictional character by a real standard.

But I do agree that Lullaby's major complains with Christianity are based on a fundamentalist society that (ironically) is based on less the Bible and more on what their daddy and Sunday school taught them.

Quote by: lc What else could be meant by "God"?

The one from the Bible and day to day life (not one you think of, but you wouldn't be lullaby if you did...)

Quote by: chinup Atheism places reason as the ultimate authority

technically agnosticism places reason as the ultimate authority as they say as soon as there is evidence to say so, we will make an absolute decision on God. Atheism is saying the evidence is already here (when I can make an indisputable case for the merest possibility of God's existence.)

[Athena]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer With weary permission, I'm recreating this thread maturely. I know, wish me luck. In previous threads I've explained why I don't believe in God. Now, I'm going to explain why God, the fictional character, is a jerk. Feel free to defend him.. 'cause I guarantee he won't be able to defend himself. Please note.. Yes, he's not real.. and I wouldn't be so angry if it weren't for all the fundamentals killing people for this imaginary jerk. Crimes against others.. God will forgive. (murder, rape, genocide, torture) Crimes against God.. God will not forgive. (atheism) Isn't this cowardly of God? He's basically saying.. "you just raped that already emotionally-troubled innocent girl? It's ok, just believe in my son and I forgive you." Forgive you? For something you did to someone else? But as soon as you pull it around and he's the victim.. that's a huge no-no that deserves only the most terrible of infinite eternal torturing punishment. Now Hell.. that's another big problem. I've once stated that the only being deserving of Hell is God. I stick by that statement. The only being that deserves Hell is a being that would create it in the first place. There's NOTHING you can do with your finite time on earth that deserves a torturing punishment that doesn't ever ever end. I'm not saying evil people shouldn't be punished, but I am saying infinity is a long time for a finite sin. Next, Why is God so cowardly that he can't take the heat for sin. For eff's sake.. Adam and Eve? He claims to be omniscient, yet he has people believing he didn't actually plan for Adam and Eve to eat the naughty fruit. He designed the whole set up.. right down to a freaking fruit that would damn us all to suffering in the first place. To say he didn't specifically design and plan for there to be sin is to insult his omniscience.. yet HE HIMSELF won't take the blame. God framed Adam and Eve. Lastly, God has people hating gays when he himself created the biological dispositions that cause most gays to be biologically gay. This is ridiculous, and in my opinion, worthy of contempt. Not to mention all the other hateful, sick, pseudo-moral nonsense in the OT. Can you defend God? Edit: Please note.. I'm not attacking religious people.. I'm attacking only God.

Would you please identify this God you are talking about? There is more than one concept of God. Spinoza's concept of God is nothing like the God of which you speak. The Hindu understanding of God, is not the God of which you speak. Democracy, is built on a God of reason, and this "God" can not forgive anything, because it is not a supernatural being, that can be influenced by our prays or sacrafices. The new cosmology uses quantum physics to explain a God and immortality that is compatible with eastern philosophy, that is not the God you are attacking. You are normally very precise, but your failure to name the God of which you speak, contributes to the notion that this concept of God is the only possible one, and therefore, there are only people who believe there is a God and those who do not believe there is God. This is a distortion of what is so, and prevents us from understanding democracy.

Ever important to the God of democracy, is we don't get away with doing bad things. If we do good, good results. If we do bad, bad results. That is the difference between good and bad. Our liberty demands education for good moral judgement, and this is a secular understanding of moral, not a religious one. It is extremely important you stop the denial of other understandings of God, and other ways of coming to moral decisions than reading holy books. Especially as we are coming to an election where religion will be a very important issue. WE ARE NOT GODLESS AND IMMORAL PEOPLE, IF WE DO NOT ACCEPT THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AS THE TRUE GOD. NAME THE GOD OF WHICH YOU SPEAK..

[Athena]

Quote by: Winter wind This is why i think Buddhism is awesome. One of the most logical religions (actually really isn't much of a religion) plus, you can be Christian and a Buddhist at the same time (to a point). sounds like death note I've noticed this, and i always wondered if it was connected to eastern philosophy (by the by, the dominate religion in japan is more Shintoism isn't it?) you certainly can (just watch lullaby or the critics attack all kinds of books and movies) Plus, you can attack a fictional character by a real standard. But I do agree that Lullaby's major complains with Christianity are based on a fundamentalist society that (ironically) is based on less the Bible and more on what their daddy and Sunday school taught them. The one from the Bible and day to day life (not one you think of, but you wouldn't be lullaby if you did...) technically agnosticism places reason as the ultimate authority as they say as soon as there is evidence to say so, we will make an absolute decision on God. Atheism is saying the evidence is already here (when I can make an indisputable case for the merest possibility of God's existence.)

I don't think we can correctly understand Jesus without knowledge of Buddhism. Our religious notions being in the east, and our western culture has separated us from the origin concepts. Just as humans and apes begin with the same ancestor and separate in different paths, so has the knowledge of God and spiritual matters taken separate paths.

Atheism is the result of the Westernized, God of Abraham, and Christianity so dominating our conscious, these people are unfamilar with spiritual concepts that are now showing up in quantum physics and the new cosmology.

This modern God of Abraham is, broken away from its original westerized beginning in Rome, with a focus on wise kings. A wise king is a servant to his people. European barbarians, lacking the civilizing influence of ancient civilizations, were more interested in a warrior God, and clearly the God of David is a war God with strong powers to destroy the enemy, so this war aspect of God was exagerated for while. As the war aspect of God is being exagerated by some Muslems right now.

In Germany this God becomes an autocrat with power and authority, rather than a wise king serving his people. Kind of like the evolution of dogs begins with one dog and becomes the huge variety of dogs, so too religion. The westernized, Christian, autocratic God is a variety of God, quiet different from its origins, and athiest are rejecting this God, and lack knowledge of other ways of thinking of God.

[Athena]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer What else could be meant by "God"?

I am glad you asked. Remember Jefferson wrote of nature's laws and the God of nature. I speak of the God of reason, which is the same thing. Reason, is only an aspect of this God that we can understand, because we have the capacity of reasoning. Physicial reality is in truth energy that obeys laws of physics, and learning of this is learning of God. Deist do not worship the God of Abraham. The concept of God you argue against. Yet deist hold a concept of God as nature.

Spinoza's God NATURE is everything. There is mass, energy, atoms, molecules, life, thought, people, societies, galaxies and perhaps even multiple universes (pure speculation). But there is nothing outside nature, including spiritual visions and other phenomena we don't yet understand. If they exist, they are part of nature. Spinoza asserted that for a concept of god to make any sense at all, it must simply be nature. That is, god cannot be something outside nature that controls it, but must necessarily be part of it. According to Spinoza, God IS nature. While Spinoza was excommunicated from his Jewish community in Amsterdam and condemned by Christians as well for being an atheist, he was very devoutly religious. He saw the traditional anthropomorphic (man-like) god as an abomination, completely rejecting the wonder of nature, from which life comes. To Spinoza, nature is the true expression of God. And each of us is part of it. Unfortunately, his highly technical, mathematical style of writing limited widespread appreciation of his work.

[nerdvincent]

So Spinoza was pantheist: the universe is God, unconcious but growing of it own, a little like a plant. I can say I'm (or rather that I accept the theories of) pantheist, deist and atheist. I can't, and I think nobody can right now, know which one is the truth. I just accept them, until we got proofs, it's the scientific observation of God concept. But I think the one which makes more sense to me is pantheism. God is the begining, God is the universe.

[ChinUp]

nerdvincent .. If you have read any of Einstein's, Jung's ideas about spirituality you will see Spinoza's God in them.. the notion isn't so much that the universe is a being a deity, more that the nature, the natural laws of the universe are God to them.

Its a very pragmatic way of looking @ God, after all what are you referring to when you say God in alarm or gratitude if its not the nature of things ? What else's can you call the great perpetually growing & dieing tapestry of self perpetuating re-creation of life & death but God ? Natural religion

I agree 100% with Athena that people should not operate under the delusion that everybody thinks God is what they think God is, because this undermines peoples freedom of thought. If a person thinks God is a deity, by rights they should use the name of the deity they have decided is what they refer to when they say God. For Christians this is Yahweh or Jehovah .

We are no longer ruled by the theist church & face being burned for heresy if we state God isn't a deity & more of a pervading theme within reality like Giordano Bruno in the roman inquisition. The inquisitions are over, we won the war agaisnt scriptural authority over relgious ideas. Time we represented that by retaining our liberty to decide for ourselves what God is..

[freedom13]

Now, I'm going to explain why God, the fictional character, is a jerk. Feel free to defend him.. 'cause I guarantee he won't be able to defend himself. Please note.. Yes, he's not real.. and I wouldn't be so angry if it weren't for all the fundamentals killing people for this imaginary jerk. Crimes against others.. God will forgive. (murder, rape, genocide, torture) Crimes against God.. God will not forgive. (atheism) Isn't this cowardly of God? He's basically saying.. "you just raped that already emotionally-troubled innocent girl? It's ok, just believe in my son and I forgive you." Forgive you? For something you did to someone else? But as soon as you pull it around and he's the victim.. that's a huge no-no that deserves only the most terrible of infinite eternal torturing punishment. Now Hell.. that's another big problem. I've once stated that the only being deserving of Hell is God. I stick by that statement. The only being that deserves Hell is a being that would create it in the first place. There's NOTHING you can do with your finite time on earth that deserves a torturing punishment that doesn't ever ever end. I'm not saying evil people shouldn't be punished, but I am saying infinity is a long time for a finite sin.

Hell is Satan mentality of wicked people and not the God of righteousness.

Next, Why is God so cowardly that he can't take the heat for sin. For eff's sake.. Adam and Eve? He claims to be omniscient, yet he has people believing he didn't actually plan for Adam and Eve to eat the naughty fruit. He designed the whole set up.. right down to a freaking fruit that would damn us all to suffering in the first place. To say he didn't specifically design and plan for there to be sin is to insult his omniscience.. yet HE HIMSELF won't take the blame. God framed Adam and Eve.

Mankind is responsible for his own sin and God has nothing to do with it. The bible indicated the man of sin is rebelliousness against the holy and righteous God.

[ZNFYRH]

Lullaby

I'd love to participate, but which God are you talking about?

The Jewish God is wrathful and jealous and spiteful. He acts like a normal person with whims and bad days and good days and doesn't like being spit on. Is he a jerk for wanting to be the only God worshiped if he also happens to be the only God. That's like one of your kids calling someone else "Mom" or "Dad."

The Christian God is rather wishy-washy. Fire and brimstone, but he watches people murder his son and he suddenly softens up.

So which God are you talking about?

And you seem to be excluding the Pantheonic Gods of Norse culture, Greece, Rome, Egypt, India, etc.

You should specify, please.

[gela]

sounds like death note I've noticed this, and i always wondered if it was connected to eastern philosophy (by the by, the dominate religion in japan is more Shintoism isn't it?)

Wikipedia told me japans dominate religion is a Buddhism Shintoism hybrid.
Death Note was exactly what I was thinking. It concludes that the ability to kill is evil; not any intentions behind it. (or something like that.. Its been a while..)

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Why God is of Questionable Character Can you defend God?

#1
Overwhelming majority (IMO) of guys associate God with "supernatural Being". That is the fundamental error they made.
Starting with that point, errors are being accumulated beyond any scale, ranking, measure, etc. In other words : wrong concept of God.

#2
I think God can defend Itself.