Jesus Camp on A&E TV

[rez]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Dying for one's beliefs does not equate to killing for one's beliefs.

No matter how you want to say it you are never going to live down the fact that people are willing to die for something that is not fact. Beliefs are not the truth, they are simply subjective personal desires that only deal with the individual. If you Christians want to kill yourselves and not harm other individuals, then by all means go ahead and kill yourselves.

[phoenix_fire]

How should I try to live down something that is not actually fact? You forget: I think I'm right. And being willing to lay down your life for something you believe in does not mean committing suicide. It can mean being in a position where others will execute you for your faith. But it most usually means living the rest of your life apart from your desires and for the sake of something else. The latter is actually harder.

[Charlatan]

You never know, people might rise up and take offensive measures against the powers that be, if they say allowed abortion. Believing in something is one thing, but when you are brought face to face with it, people get tender, they panic, they resort to doing things like taking strong measures in their beliefs, like burning abortion clinics, or things like that. They believe all the time that they are good Christians, but this brings out fresh emotions in them, strong ones, and if they find themselves short, as they always will, they might do crazy things!

[phoenix_fire]

Or you could believe strongly and zealously that your faith does not at all call for those kinds of things. You can believe very strongly without turning into a raving lunatic. As a matter of fact, many of those people are not really in touch with what they claim to believe and are instead motivated more by other social and psychological factors.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: nerdvincent And what about 10 kids wearing camo clothes and camo facial make-up, weaving weapons while singing and dancing for Jesus?

What about them? Maybe if you actually UNDERSTOOD how these people think, you'd know that what these kids were wearing was not all that different than wearing a costume but, in this case, with the intent to communicate a message.

Did you really saw the movie?

The correct question is "Did you really see the movie?" And, yes, not only did I see the move, I have the DVD.

[rez]

Quote by: phoenix_fire You forget: I think I'm right.

That is right. You think you are right. Everybody else thinks they are right too. Stop living in your own little world.

And being willing to lay down your life for something you believe in does not mean committing suicide.

Call it what you want. You yourself laid down the main points of what sucidide is. "Willing, Laying down your own life".

It can mean being in a position where others will execute you for your faith.

In which case if you claim that you are not of that faith, you won't be executed? Why not lie, get off the hook, and be alive to preach more about your faith to get more people to believe you. If you choose not to lie you are basically allowing an outside party kill you. Perhaps, a noose, a person, or maybe even pills... As I see it you are committing suicide.

But it most usually means living the rest of your life apart from your desires and for the sake of something else. The latter is actually harder.

Your desire is to be apart of that something else. That is all that matters. Your own language even says it! That "something else" happens to be what you were indoctrinated in at a very young age, so its not very hard to be apart of it.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Chancellor What about them? Maybe if you actually UNDERSTOOD how these people think, you'd know that what these kids were wearing was not all that different than wearing a costume but, in this case, with the intent to communicate a message.

Of course. And I get the message: they're fanatics ready to kill atheists if the fat lady tell them.

Quote by: Chancellor The correct question is "Did you really see the movie?" And, yes, not only did I see the move, I have the DVD.

Sorry, I was fried that night.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez That is right. You think you are right. Everybody else thinks they are right too. Stop living in your own little world.

Funny. That was my point. You insist on treating the supposed untruth of faith as if it is a given, stipulated fact of the debate. It's not. And I'm not going to let you walk away with that one.

Call it what you want. You yourself laid down the main points of what sucidide is. "Willing, Laying down your own life".

Not really. There are plenty of instances in which you can give your life and it not be suicide. If you allow yourself to be a hostage so that others can go free, for instance. Or if you take a bullet for someone. Or if you run into a burning building to save someone and you end up dying as a result. Would you like to tell the families of the cops and firefighters that died rescuing people at the World Trade Center that their loved ones committed suicide?

In which case if you claim that you are not of that faith, you won't be executed? Why not lie, get off the hook, and be alive to preach more about your faith to get more people to believe you. If you choose not to lie you are basically allowing an outside party kill you. Perhaps, a noose, a person, or maybe even pills... As I see it you are committing suicide.

Let me ask you something: if denying that you were your son's father or your wife's husband would save your own neck (but not theirs), would you do it? You could find another wife. You could have dozens of other kids.

Your desire is to be apart of that something else. That is all that matters. Your own language even says it! That "something else" happens to be what you were indoctrinated in at a very young age, so its not very hard to be apart of it.

Actually, no. I didn't even know all that much about Christianity until I got to college, and that was on my own research. Don't assume.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: nerdvincent Of course. And I get the message: they're fanatics ready to kill atheists if the fat lady tell them.

Then you clearly don't understand (though they are being influenced to become fanatics).

[ShadowFox]

You say you are willing to "lay your life down" for your religious. This means you are willing to die for your religion. If this is not what it is, don't say your laying your life down for your religion. Now the way it seems to be used in the movie is that these kids shouldn't be afraid to die while fighting for what their parents are saying is gods will.

[Charlatan]

They are saying that one should die for their religion? This is highly thought of, but the grounds for their dying is that they will go to heaven. Like a martyr, they die for something else, but if that something else meant to go to hell they wouldn't do it most likely, so they are being taught to die and go to heaven, fighting for their God's will. Now say they got told to die for Him and go to hell, would they still do it? Imagine that sort of scenario, where God demands you die for Him and doesn't let you get into heaven, what then? Under my reasoning it is impossible to meet the requirements necessary for getting into heaven, so God chooses who He wants there, and if you die for Him he chooses you, you don't earn it, he might still tell some to go away, so what are you fighting for? A god that is high on Himslef all day long? A God that tells you to ask forgiveness the whole time for everything you do wrong? SImple set of rules, this whole Christian thing, but seeing as how you can't get to heaven unless God likes you, meaning that he cherishses you socailly, then you may as well not fight for Him.

What makes this God cherish you socially? Worshipping Him and coming to Him all the time for everything you do wrong, loving others, and so forth. It is impossible to be fully forgiven unless you remeber all the things you do wrong, so you will be carrying around a sack of unhappiness and regret the whole time, and not be very friendly. Under these circumstances you might panic and start to distance yourslef from bad people, but you are supposed to love everybody the same. Also you would crack apart with worry as to what you have done, as we all sin. Does God say it is ok to sin, be forgiven, and forget? Must you repeat your sins forgiveness thing? Yes you should, as that would make God even happier - imagine someone that remebers all the bad things they have done and walks about feeling miserable for their God, hell that misery makes anything feel good, if making Jesus suffer made God feel that He would let people into heaven, then more suffering would surely make God feel better, logically.

I think waht the priests tell people is that they don't need to flog themsleves like they do because they would rather see people in the churches, so they lowered the bar, not God. The fact that they flog themselves - does that make them better Christians? They should tell people to do as they do, they are sick with worry aren't they? So should all others be sick with worry if they think that hurting themselves is what God wants, then hurt yourself. If you think why should you do that, think of why you shouldn't? These men, through understanding the bible, have come to the conclusion that this is good. Now are they wrong? Is a priest that doesn't flog himslef do the right thing? Is being free of your sins the way to go, or is a sacrifice needed? Before Jesus, yes a sacrifice was needed, but since Jesus there is no need for sacrifice, so now you just need to forget your sins after doing them. So... why do priests flog themselves if it makes God angry? Is this the high that Christianity can bring, wanting to please God so much? This high is actually a low, and only devout priests do this, so what is missing here? Devotion to God of course. If you are devoted to God, and want to make Him happy, by some opinions you need to offer sacrifice. I am sure at some point they thought what if they just let it be, and then thought that they were better than other people by doing it, in a way. So devotion to God means that you will beat yourself for sins often, wanting to make Him glad, and making Him glad pleases Him. How dare you not try to make Him glad? Are you trying to live it easy, take a free ride on Jesus? Do you live your life for God? If so you will live it differently, and may end up worrying like that. I call it a breakdown in communication between devout practisioners and God, and it should happen to a lot of the people being reached by this camp if it has had any effect.

[Kite]

Quote by: Chancellor Then you clearly don't understand (though they are being influenced to become fanatics).

Then why don't you help us to understand? Tell us the message the children waving weapons around in camouflage intend to communicate, since the obvious inference of fear and intimidation is wrong, according to you.

[ShadowFox]

Quote by: Chancellor Then you clearly don't understand (though they are being influenced to become fanatics).

What I witnessed in the film "Jesus Camp" is children being told to join God's army and to fight "the enemy" (which is in all likelihood muslims) because God wants them to. They say they should be willing to lay their lives down for God. Also, they seem to use god as a way to convince these children to protest against abortion, something I seriously doubt they have any understanding of.

So tell us, Chancellor, what do you think that movie was saying?

[phoenix_fire]

I seriously don't agree with the methods used in Jesus Camp. I've said so before. But I also don't think it's a terrorist training camp. If the critics of Jesus Camp would quit using that particular hyperbole, I'd probably be on their side.

[ShadowFox]

What I am saying is that what I witnessed in Jesus Camp is children being taught to fight as part of god's army and be willing to die for God and to fight the "enemy" which seems to be the muslims in the middle east. This could be equated to terrorism. I also witnessed the use of children as tools for political gain.

[Morality Games]

It definitely falls under the jurisdiction of brainwashing, which is what radical Muslims do to their children.

[ShadowFox]

True morality. This film showed people what radical christians are doing now-a-days. What's freaky is that, if you watch some of the reaction videos, some people think it's perfectly fine to do those things.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Halofan48 True morality. This film showed people what radical christians are doing now-a-days. What's freaky is that, if you watch some of the reaction videos, some people think it's perfectly fine to do those things.

Look at that.
45% of Americans believe in young earth creationism.
So positive reactions to the Jesus Camp sounds pretty much normal to me...

[ShadowFox]

...ridiculous.

They are against radical muslims brainwashing their children, yet are fine when christians do it.

[phoenix_fire]

Well, there is a fine line between teaching and brainwashing. And teaching the young is a big responsibility of adults. Most people don't know how to teach their kids to think because they were never taught themselves.