Jesus Camp on A&E TV

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Maryjane Well PF, I guess I'd have to say I question your parenting skills if you believe shoving an plastic aborted fetus in a 4 year old's hand (when they have no idea what the hell an abortion is) is doing god's work. Nice to see the kid waving a rainbow flag though. Least they aren't picketing the gays.

While I would not do something like that, or allow it with children in my care, it's still not a terrorist training exercise. I disagree strongly with the methods of Jesus Camp, as I have expressed in previous threads on the subject. But I am also stricken by much of the hypocritical and exaggerated backlash I have seen.

You prove my point though. You approve of indoctrination just so long as it's a message with which you agree.

[Jack]

Exaggerated perhaps, as a means to wake people up to the danger, but how is it hypocritical to compare terrorist training camps to Jesus camp? Some of object to both, for similar reasons. I'd say we're rather consistent in our view. Religious camps of any stripe that are intended to corrupt and defile children's minds with nonsense are objectionable to those of us who are aware of the insidiousness of propagandist education.

[Milton Bradley]

As with all societal norms, if the center gets pushed to one side, then the extreme will seem less extreme.


One, or two generations of people raised on these ideas will give rise to even more extremist generations who will follow.


It's the nature of the beast.

[Jubloz]

Quote by: phoenix_fire In Christianity, the war talk is metaphorical.

I've been hearing that lately; that the Bible is purely metaphorical, as if the Bible has no examples that are implicative of supporting acting out with violence.

Quote by: Deuteronomy 13:6, 8-15 If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son,or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is your own soul, entices you secretly, saying "Let us go and serve other gods,"...you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you will kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage...

Is it any surprise that a child raised to be a "little soldier, willing to die for Jesus" would take something like this literally? pf, claiming that all Christians don't take this stuff literally, and that it's just a Muslim thing, is simply a testament to an ignorance of history.

Quote by: phoenix_fire We know this because little Christian children don't strap bomb belts on themselves and go blow up infidels.

Wait a second--yes they do. And there are countless examples of Christians born into this sort of fundamentalism engaging in these sort of violent activities later on in life.

Quote by: phoenix_fire Cripes. Does anyone here have common sense enough to see past their own hatred?

I find it extraordinarily macabre when people are put to death for differing ideology. I don't hate the children in that video, nor do I hate, in the purist sense of the word, the adults training them; after all, they were once children who grew to where they are through an equal level of indoctrination. I do hate the outcome, however, and I do hate the concept that support such an outcome, which is why I find it vital to deal with this sort of mind frame rather than just disregarding it as innocent.

[PatC]

i only saw about 30 mins of this and could not stomach the rest of it (i.e. download the rest for free). I found this very disturbing, especially the scene where Becky compares her students with children in Palestine and how they are indoctrinated into the radical Islam (really Palestinian nationalism though) and are prepared to give their life for it. If you havent seen this film, Becky is very fat, which means she has a very fat ass, and it may be difficult for her to find her head inside of her ass. How are we supposed to believe a person who says they found Jesus when they were 6 when they have a mullet that bad looking? Regardless of what religion we are, we should not be preparing to die for our faith, we should begin studying other religions so that we actually understand them. In the very essence they are surprisingly similar, we have a lot to learn from each other ....and on a semi unrelated note if you havent seen Paradise Now, check it out, good flick

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood Exaggerated perhaps, as a means to wake people up to the danger, but how is it hypocritical to compare terrorist training camps to Jesus camp? Some of object to both, for similar reasons. I'd say we're rather consistent in our view. Religious camps of any stripe that are intended to corrupt and defile children's minds with nonsense are objectionable to those of us who are aware of the insidiousness of propagandist education.

There is no danger. There is no endgame to this curriculum to intentionally inspire terroristic acts. The position is hypocritical because, just as I pointed out, you guys don't seem to mind this kind of thing if it has a message with which you agree. The picture that I showed above is an example of what someone on the other side of the coin would call nonsense: "objectionable to those of us who are aware of the insidiousness of propagandist education". And this kind of propaganda is allowed to flourish in our very public schools whether the parents want it or not, while the one against which you protest is limited to those who consent to this kind of constitutionally sanctioned expression of their faith.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Milton Bradley The Neocons "Culture War" is little more than religious intolerance on a massive scale in my opinion. They're talking head, pundits are always blowing their cover when Bush himself is not slipping up in his public addresses. Tune into to Fox News for a week, and count the flag wavings, and religious implications expressed in their Culture War segments.

The "culture war" was there long before the neocons came along.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Milton Bradley P.S. I don't hate religion, I hate "organized" religion.

So, you prefer disorganized religion?

[Chancellor]

Much of the stuff in the Jesus Camp DVD come from dominion theology, Christian Reconstructionism and related phenomena such as Joel's Army.

The final outcome- the kingdom pt.4
Joel's Global Police Force  Or Elijah's Revolution
"Dominion Theology and Joel's Army"
Joel's Army 1
Dominionism

[Maryjane]

One, or two generations of people raised on these ideas will give rise to even more extremist generations who will follow.

agreed.

There is no danger. There is no endgame to this curriculum to intentionally inspire terroristic acts. The position is hypocritical because, just as I pointed out, you guys don't seem to mind this kind of thing if it has a message with which you agree.

There is danger PF. Look at the world around you! What is their message PF?
Love the unborn, save the unborn, but what happens to those children after they are born? If they are different or they don't grow up to be part of gods army they are the enemy?

What you fail to see is indroctrinating children to hate is wrong. I don't care who does it or how they do it. Disguse it any way you want, but it's sill hate. We are all humans and just because someone is different doesn't give you or anyone else the right to persecute them because of their religius beliefs.



On another note...

In the movie, I found Ted Haggart's little joke inappropriate for a Sunday sermon...
I have a 10 year rule about dating....
For those of you that married someone 30 years older than you?, I hope he dies and you get the money! har, har, har....

Now that's Fu'd up.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Maryjane agreed. There is danger PF. Look at the world around you! What is their message PF? Love the unborn, save the unborn, but what happens to those children after they are born? If they are different or they don't grow up to be part of gods army they are the enemy? What you fail to see is indroctrinating children to hate is wrong. I don't care who does it or how they do it. Disguse it any way you want, but it's sill hate. We are all humans and just because someone is different doesn't give you or anyone else the right to persecute them because of their religius beliefs. On another note... In the movie, I found Ted Haggart's little joke inappropriate for a Sunday sermon... I have a 10 year rule about dating.... For those of you that married someone 30 years older than you?, I hope he dies and you get the money! har, har, har.... Now that's Fu'd up.

Preaching hate? I haven't watched the movie in a few months, but I don't recall that at all.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Jubloz Is it any surprise that a child raised to be a "little soldier, willing to die for Jesus" would take something like this literally? pf, claiming that all Christians don't take this stuff literally, and that it's just a Muslim thing, is simply a testament to an ignorance of history.

The proof is in the pudding. Prove that things like this (and I mean Christian...no Al Qaeda dodges) lead to actual acts of terror. Show me a direct link. And prove that it is systemic.

Wait a second--yes they do. And there are countless examples of Christians born into this sort of fundamentalism engaging in these sort of violent activities later on in life.

Countless? Where then is the Christian Hamas? And I mean literally one-to-one. No using exaggerative metaphors.

I find it extraordinarily macabre when people are put to death for differing ideology. I don't hate the children in that video, nor do I hate, in the purist sense of the word, the adults training them; after all, they were once children who grew to where they are through an equal level of indoctrination. I do hate the outcome, however, and I do hate the concept that support such an outcome, which is why I find it vital to deal with this sort of mind frame rather than just disregarding it as innocent.

The outcome is usually kids that are disillusioned with religion in general. The outcome is certainly not terrorism. But you'd rather deny constitutional freedoms than allow the persistence of an ideology that you just personally don't like. That's the out and out of it, and it astounds me that people can pretend not to notice their own hypocrisy.

[Matt W]

Where then is the Christian Hamas?

That is actually a very easy question to answer, pf.

Lebanese Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sabra & Shatila

Catholic World News : Christian militia massacres Muslims in Nigeria town

[Maryjane]

But you'd rather deny constitutional freedoms than allow the persistence of an ideology that you just personally don't like. That's the out and out of it, and it astounds me that people can pretend not to notice their own hypocrisy.

I'm a hypocrite because I didn't raise a stink about my son's PUBLIC SCHOOL's winter program being held in a BAPTIST church where upon entry there is a HUGE sign stating WELCOME TO THE MISSION FIELD! (I have a picture of it on my cell phone)
Before the program the church didn't play neutral holiday themed music, they played a Gospel CD...twice.

So please, give me a break about who teaches tolerence.

[nerdvincent]

"At the camp, Fischer stresses the need for children to purify themselves in order to be part of the "army of God." She strongly believes that children need to be in the forefront of turning America toward conservative Christian values. She also feels that Christians need to focus on training kids in religious warfare since "the enemy" are focused on training theirs."

How can you doubt PF? Everything is a weapon if you swing it right, even if it has a Jesus tatoo on its butt.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Chancellor So, you prefer disorganized religion?

One could characterize it that way, or one could just say that religion is not a team sport, it's a personal choice.


Why people think it's OK to let others who claim to have a better understanding brow beat them all into submission is beyond me.

[Maryjane]

I haven't watched the movie in a few months, but I don't recall that at all

.
Because of my experience, I automatically prick when I hear people make absurd remarks equating receiving life insurance with winning the lottery. It's a common misconception.
I watched the movie twice. I'm positive I didn't make it up. I took the time to take notes as I was viewing to discuss them with my son if he had any questions. Thanks to my husband's CHRISTIAN business partner, my sons learned about the misconception first hand.

[Maryjane]

Look PF,

I was once on the inside looking out. Now I'm on the outside looking in. Is it too much to ask that all religions cut out the nonsense? Try to get along? Leave people the hell alone just because they are different than you? I try my hardest to raise my kids NOT to be bigots. They learn how the world is thru their eyes. All I can do is point out the descrepancies as I see them when they ask for my opinion. If religious people stuck to saving peoples lives and left their souls alone they all would be ok in my book.

[ShadowFox]

Ugh, i'm going to explain something to you PF, and your probably going to deny it and say all sorts of things about how it's untrue, but you need to see this. The kids are taught intolerance about religion. When something like 9/11 happens, they immediately say that it's the fault of everyone in that religion and not just a minority part of it. They then have places where it is the main religion invaded, which results in hate against our nation for killing innocents. Then some people who weren't terrorists join Al Queda to get revenge for hurting their friends, family, etc. and trying to change the way they run their own country into something we think is right. Then when these terrorists attack due to this, you use it to instill more hate in youths saying that they all want to kill us, yet they leave out the fact that we killed many more of them. Yet, this might stray the thread a bit off topic, so i'll end it there. Also, preaching hate against other religions is how things like pointless wars get started.

[phoenix_fire]

And yet people here do not realize that they are preaching hate against a religion. It's so painfully obvious to those of us who don't do it. This likening of Christians to terrorists is ridiculously offensive to me. So offensive that, although I would tend to side against the Jesus Camp crowd (strongly), the offense keeps me focused elsewhere. Let me use an example from antiquity to help explain my anger: back in the day, people used to say that when a white person slept with a black person, it was as good as sleeping with an animal. They even tried to offer "proof" in the form of Social Darwinism. But black people are not animals and the kiddos in the video are not terrorists.