Was Not Winston Churchill a Wise Man?

[webjedi]

In 1936 Churchill was begging the British Parliament to listen to take Nazi Germany seriously, and recognize that Hitler was about to rampage thru Europe. Of course, he was ridiculed, and as we now know, those responsible for Britain's welfare were horribly mistaken not to listen to him. Indeed, their society was saved only by the U.S. entering the war. In fact, Stanley Baldwin, the PM at the time said of Chruchill:

He was denied judgment and wisdom. And that is why, while we delight to listen to him in this House, we do not take his advice.

Turns out Baldwin was the the unwise man, and his lack of wisdom cost Millions of lives.

The fact is, they didn't want to believe it. Mainly because that conclusion would have led their country directly into confrontation, and, as I have said on this forum before (and gotten chastised for it), Europeans are, well... I'll be PC about it this time: courage-challenged. Anyway, however you want to say it, they didn't properly prepare for war, and in doing so ran away; giving the Germans a nice view of their back (good place to shoot people).

So, once again, in hindsight we look back and realize we didn't want to believe something else:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome. - Winston Chruchill, The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248 50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899)

Once again, if we had listened to Churchill's advice we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. Once again Churchill predicted a terrible war. BUT, once again Churchill gave us the answer to winning that war: science.

For is it not true that the only weapons that are effective against us are those we invented? Other than the use of passenger jets as weapons, they really haven't even come up with anything that hasn't been done before - even though there are a Billion of them.

So it is science that will defeat them, inevitably. Even if they get their wish and detonate a nuclear device, even if they are able to trick countries into a nuclear exchange, we are the ones who have the bomb shelters. We are the ones who can produce the food, the medicines, the energy our society will need to recover. In fact, a post-nuclear World is one in which science will be the only protector of life.

And what happens when they reach their dream of World destruction and Muhammad doesn't come back and usher them all into Heaven? Will anyone still believe them? I'm sure they will. Because as ignorant and misguided as people are today, man never fails to prove his inability to learn from history.

Maybe, just maybe, enough of them will be become enlightened and/or dependent upon technology to survive that they have to accept the fact that not everyone is going to convert to Islam, and that is actually OK with God. Hopefully before they get their hands on a nuclear weapon.

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[Matt W]

Sooo...apart from slurring Europeans and Muslims....anything else?

[loser]

He said "Europeans" but he was referring to Britons (as Germans are Europeans, too).

Slurring? I didn't get that. What I got is someone who's political bent and/or understanding of the world's geo/political temperature is aligned with that of Churchhill's. The holiness that the Taliban forces upon it's people is not bad but the 'force' is. Holiness is good and to be desired. Force is not. Holiness can only exist by CHOICE.

[webjedi]

Sooo...apart from slurring Europeans and Muslims....anything else?

It's interesting you would consider telling the truth a "slur".

Please, enlighten me: show me where the lie is.

And remember, I am expounding upon a man who was right several times throughout history where everyone else was wrong.

I have a feeling.... I am absolutely sure.... there are a number of people on Volconvo, and across the World, that for whom....

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.

The fact is, what Churchill said is so plainly obvious to people that have no emotional interest in it's denial that I really didn't need to expound upon it at all to make my point. In fact, I tried to just post it as a quote, but the system thought I wasn't posting anything and returned an error to the effect of "your post must include at least 3 characters". It may have been more PC to not have added anything, but then why be unfair to the truth to save someone's feelings? If we all thought that way there would even be an Internet to discuss this on.

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[Sonart]

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Quote by: webjedi It's interesting you would consider telling the truth a "slur".

Absolutely, especially when the truth comes from a snot-nosed 26 yr-old British Empire colonialist out to make his bones fighting Pashtun Waziris in the Khyber Pass at the turn of the 19th century.

This would be the same Churchill who helped found the India Defense League, dedicated to denying India its independence. The nerve of the bloody wogs!!

Said Churchill of Gandhi, "It is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle-Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well-known in the East, striding half-naked up the steps of the Vice-regal palace...to parley on equal terms with the representative of the King-Emperor."

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[tinybear]

Yeah, but which part of the quote from Churchill was wrong?

[webjedi]

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Sonart, that's not logical.

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[Sonart]

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Quote by: Webjedi Sonart, that's not logical.

Not logical???

You use Churchill's pre-war assessment of Hitler to set up Churchill as the ultimate forecaster of evil, then refer to statements he made in 1899 when he a racist 26 yr-old fighting for the British Raj against independence seeking Pashtun Afghans and Pakistanis, all so you can paint Muslims as the future face of evil on earth.

Sorry, but go peddle your religious superiority and fear mongering somewhere else.

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[Nono]

I'd join Sonart in refusing to summarize Churchill's life as a Correct Assessment of the Nazi Threat. The man was involved in public life for many decades and did and said some appallingly idiotic things, and did and said some excellent things.

He sure as hell was in the right place at the right time in 1940, thank God.

webjedi, I'm intrigued by your novel hijacking of Churchill's position on Germany as a tool for bad-talking Muslims. Quite ingenious, if unconvincing.

[Jokerjdude]

Didn't a lot of people have those sort of views in Britain then. Being British myself I can assure you that Churchill was one of the best P.M we ever had. As I was not born when he was the P.M I can say that his decisions he made still influence us today.

[Nono]

Quote by: Joker Didn't a lot of people have those sort of views in Britain then.

What views?

Churchill was a priceless war leader. But as soon as the war was over he was thrown out of office by the British electorate.

I believe it's totally misguided to take a black/white view of the guy.
He was an eccentric egotist, but in the right place at the right time.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono Churchill was a priceless war leader. But as soon as the war was over he was thrown out of office by the British electorate.

Yep... Churchill was the right man at the right place in 1939 to fight a war in Europe. But Churchill was also a product of the old British Empire and steadfastly opposed to the independence of Her Majesties colonies around the world. He was completely obsolete after 1945.

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[loser]

I'm sure that Churchill must have said some bonehead things in his lifetime (because of having bonehead beliefs and ideas...like all of us) but the three Churchill quotes above (by Webjedi and Sonart) reveal an uncanny acumen and an astute observer of life.

Good quotes...smart man.

As far as Imperialism, for the most part, is has been a very good thing. Independence and self-rule for the majority of the countries given it has ultimately been a bad choice. People as a rule are too ignorant to care for themselves. That's why it is vital to have governments; be they ruled by monarchs, emporors, kings, yea even dictators. The world needs servants and slaves...and people act like that's a bad thing.

Churchill lived in a better time when one could be proud to be a master and servants and slaves knew their place (and were content as long as they were treated justly).

The pretence of equality has been one of the most detrimental forces affecting mankind. Instead of embracing diversity, we have sought to eradicate it. As a result, the quality of life for all has suffered terribly.

Well, I gotta go...I have to go shine my shoes...