Does the Bible want you to take it non-literally?

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Isherwood No, I don't. Popularity is not a measure of validity. And the self-abasement and mental self-abuse required to be a Christian leave me feeling less than charitable toward that particular religion, not that the validity of any religion has been established beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't believe I even implied anything resembling 'validity of any religion'. I'm also pretty sure that any self-basement and/or mental self-abuse I might engage in has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my Christian faith. (I also think that your view on that is pretty prejudicial, but then most criticism of Christianity based on such criteria is.)
But perhaps you can point to another at least 2000-year-old book that remains on the world's best seller list year after year? I feel I'm on pretty solid standing in thinking that is remarkable.

You are of course perfectly free to hold up your own example of a best seller that has survived 2000 years.

[rez]

Quote by: Foxfyre But perhaps you can point to another at least 2000-year-old book that remains on the world's best seller list year after year? I feel I'm on pretty solid standing in thinking that is remarkable.

Pornography has been on the best seller list year after year.

Just because beliefs are widely held does not mean the belief is true.

it is equivalent to saying "Everyone is going to see that new movie, so it must be good!"

At one point in human history a lot of people thought the world was flat and that that diseases were caused by evil spirits, but those beliefs turned out to be false.

Simply put, a claim is not proven true by the amount of followers it has.

So now that we know NEVER EVER to appeal to widespread belief...we can continue with the thread.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: rez Pornography has been on the best seller list year after year. Just because beliefs are widely held does not mean the belief is true. it is equivalent to saying "Everyone is going to see that new movie, so it must be good!" At one point in human history a lot of people thought the world was flat and that that diseases were caused by evil spirits, but those beliefs turned out to be false. Simply put, a claim is not proven true by the amount of followers it has. So now that we know NEVER EVER to appeal to widespread belief...we can continue with the thread.

Well its good to know that you're keeping up with trends in pornography. Everybody needs a hobby.

Many books on many different subjects are also on the shelves year after year. But can you point out any example of pornography or any other book, for that matter, other than the Bible, that has consistently been on the best seller list--the non-fiction best seller list at that--for as long as they have been keeping such lists? We aren't talking categories here. We are talking about a single bound book sold as the Holy Bible. Can you name any other book containing 2000+ year-old writings that even makes it onto the best seller list these days?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Foxfyre Well its good to know that you're keeping up with trends in pornography. Everybody needs a hobby. Many other books on many different subjects are also on the shelves year after year. But can you point out any example of pornography or any other book, for that matter, other than the Bible, that has consistently been on the best seller list--the non-fiction best seller list at that--for as long as they have been keeping such lists? We aren't talking categories here. We are talking about a single bound book sold as the Holy Bible. Can you name any other 2000+ year old book that even makes it onto the best seller list these days?

What book, year after year would top the list in Saudi Arabia? Israel? Iran? Turkey? etc...

I've never held faith because its the popular thing.... hell if we followed your train of logic here then we should all take up our arms and join Bradley as he marches to overthrow washington.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer What is the basis for changing the direct word of God or Jesus? Is it from the Bible or is it from the fact that most Christians today can't defend things like the stoning of children or a 6,000 year old earth?

#1, #2
Level of education.
It prompts an individual to accurately and/or fairly adjust the data, without the need of rejecting that data (itself).
Whether some guys are capable of complying with that requirement, a level of education becomes an essential factor.

It has not much in common with defending a particular indivudual's approach, but :
- acquiring
- comprehending
- analyzing
a submited material, and expressing findings and/or determinations in a proper and/or the most adequate way.

[rez]

Quote by: Foxfyre Well its good to know that you're keeping up with trends in pornography. Everybody needs a hobby. Many books on many different subjects are also on the shelves year after year. But can you point out any example of pornography or any other book, for that matter, other than the Bible, that has consistently been on the best seller list--the non-fiction best seller list at that--for as long as they have been keeping such lists? We aren't talking categories here. We are talking about a single bound book sold as the Holy Bible. Can you name any other book containing 2000+ year-old writings that even makes it onto the best seller list these days?

Your reasoning is based on an idea that popularity makes things true. This is a horrible argument and it needs to stop.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: rez Your reasoning is based on an idea that popularity makes things true. This is a horrible argument and it needs to stop.

I would agree if I had said anything like that. I didn't. You need to stop making an argument based on false assertions.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Foxfyre I would agree if I had said anything like that. I didn't. You need to stop making an argument based on false assertions.

You did cite its popularity to support it.

And yet the Bible has survived millienia of attempts to extinguish it and remains the world's No. 1 best seller today.

Are you counting all the bible copies that get NO use?? Think of all those bibles in hotel rooms...just sitting there thanks to those damn gideons. How about those bibles that might have been purchased by churches to replaced used ones??

Another thing to consider is how long its been around. 2000 years to sell 6 billion copies. If we assume that the same number of books were sold every year, the bible sells about 3,000,000 copies/year. The second best selling book is "Quotations from Chairman Mao". At 900,000,000 copies sold in just 41 years of print it sells over 21 million copies/year. Definitely on par to surpass the bible....just give it 2000 more years.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: HelioPrime What book, year after year would top the list in Saudi Arabia? Israel? Iran? Turkey? etc... I've never held faith because its the popular thing.... hell if we followed your train of logic here then we should all take up our arms and join Bradley as he marches to overthrow washington.

Doesn't matter does it? On average world wide, the Bible still outsells any single other label sold.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: freefallife Are you counting all the bible copies that get NO use?? Think of all those bibles in hotel rooms...just sitting there thanks to those damn gideons.

Brings back memories of the X-Files. Why are there bibles in every hotel? They answered that one on the show.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: freefallife You did cite its popularity to support it. Are you counting all the bible copies that get NO use?? Think of all those bibles in hotel rooms...just sitting there thanks to those damn gideons. How about those bibles that might have been purchased by churches to replaced used ones?? Another thing to consider is how long its been around. 2000 years to sell 6 billion copies. If we assume that the same number of books were sold every year, the bible sells about 3,000,000 copies/year. The second best selling book is "Quotations from Chairman Mao". At 900,000,000 copies sold in just 41 years of print it sells over 21 million copies/year. Definitely on par to surpass the bible....just give it 2000 more years.

I did not use the word 'popular' and inferred nothing other than the Bible outsells any other single book sold. You and Rez and anybody else can try to twist that fact into anything that little pointy heads can conceive, but any words anybody attrempts to put into my mouth will still be a lie.

I am counting Bibles sold. Nothing more. Nothing less. You can count books read, books never opened, books burned, books stored in attics, books buried in the back yard, or anything else that you can think up that you want to count, and the fact remains, the Bible still outsells any other single title, year after year. (It's actually more like 20 million copies a year printed in the USA alone.) I'm sorry that so many panties are getting in a bunch over that, but the fact is, the Bible is the world's #1 best seller. The fact that it contains manuscripts roughly 2000+ years old and older only makes that simple fact more amazing; or interesting if you prefer.

(P.S. sales to the author don't really count don't you think? How many of those 90000000 copies of Chairman Mao's self promoting (cough) book do you honestly think were purchased because anybody wanted them either for themselves or to give away?)

[Suburbanite]

im not really trying to hop into this debate but its been annoying me since seeing this thread

the opposite of literal is metaphorical, not non-literal

[freefallife]

Quote by: Foxfyre I did not use the word 'popular' and inferred nothing other than the Bible outsells any other single book sold.

Just because you didn't use the word 'popular' does not mean you were not directly refering to it. 'Best-selling' and 'popular' are synonymous. Therefore, saying that despite 'the millenia of attempts to exstiguish it' ,[the bible] 'remains the world's No. 1 best seller today.', you are using the popularity of the bible to support it. You are saying that the Bible is inextinguishable and using it's 'best-seller' status as evidence of your claim.

You and Rez and anybody else can try to twist that fact into anything that little pointy heads can conceive, but any words anybody attrempts to put into my mouth will still be a lie.

First of all, try to refrain from your childish derogitory statements. Secondly, I did not put words into your mouth. They came right from your post.

I am counting Bibles sold. Nothing more. Nothing less.

But you SHOULD think about more than just that. Research has found that ninety-one per cent of American households own at least one Bible—the average household owns four—which means that Bible publishers manage to sell twenty-five million copies a year of a book that almost everybody already has. How is that possible? You should question that. The answer is pretty simple. Business. Bible printing companys would be out of luck if they didn't keep coming up with 'new' bibles to sell. There are study Bibles that focus on theology, on historical context, or on practical applications of Biblical teachings. There are devotional Bibles for new believers, couples, brides. There's a cowboy bible, women’s Bibles in pastel colors...even a SURFERS bible!! The 'best-selling' status of the Bible is testament to but one thing...good marketing and consumerism. Wayne Hastings, the publisher of Nelson’s Bible division, said “Look at satellite radio—what is that, a hundred and seventy-eight stations? And it’s all niched. We’re doing the same thing in Bibles.” Bible publishers depend heavily on focus groups, surveys, and trend-spotting firms. For cover designs, they subscribe to fashion-industry color reports. Tim Jordan, a Bible marketing manager at B. & H. Publishing Group said, “It doesn’t have to be ‘a King James Bible in black bonded leather, and we might offer it to you in burgundy.’ In years past, that might have been O.K., but the game has changed.”

Simply because it it the best seller year after year is a weak argument for anything but good marketing.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: freefallife Just because you didn't use the word 'popular' does not mean you were not directly refering to it. 'Best-selling' and 'popular' are synonymous. Therefore, saying that despite 'the millenia of attempts to exstiguish it' ,[the bible] 'remains the world's No. 1 best seller today.', you are using the popularity of the bible to support it. You are saying that the Bible is inextinguishable and using it's 'best-seller' status as evidence of your claim. First of all, try to refrain from your childish derogitory statements. Secondly, I did not put words into your mouth. They came right from your post. But you SHOULD think about more than just that. Research has found that ninety-one per cent of American households own at least one Bible—the average household owns four—which means that Bible publishers manage to sell twenty-five million copies a year of a book that almost everybody already has. How is that possible? You should question that. The answer is pretty simple. Business. Bible printing companys would be out of luck if they didn't keep coming up with 'new' bibles to sell. There are study Bibles that focus on theology, on historical context, or on practical applications of Biblical teachings. There are devotional Bibles for new believers, couples, brides. There's a cowboy bible, women’s Bibles in pastel colors...even a SURFERS bible!! The 'best-selling' status of the Bible is testament to but one thing...good marketing and consumerism. Wayne Hastings, the publisher of Nelson’s Bible division, said “Look at satellite radio—what is that, a hundred and seventy-eight stations? And it’s all niched. We’re doing the same thing in Bibles.” Bible publishers depend heavily on focus groups, surveys, and trend-spotting firms. For cover designs, they subscribe to fashion-industry color reports. Tim Jordan, a Bible marketing manager at B. & H. Publishing Group said, “It doesn’t have to be ‘a King James Bible in black bonded leather, and we might offer it to you in burgundy.’ In years past, that might have been O.K., but the game has changed.” Simply because it it the best seller year after year is a weak argument for anything but good marketing.

If you are referring to my posts you would not have used the word 'popular' as synonymous with 'best seller' as I made no such distinction. In fact I rejected that distinction by suggesting that the #2 best seller was created by means other than free choice to purchase or not purchase, own or not own, receive or not receive. So just using the #1 and #2 best sellers for comparison, the word 'popular' certainly does not fit both.

If you consider it childish to refuse to allow other people to extrapolate what I do say into what you want me to have said, then I am guilty as charged. And you can count on me doing that pretty much every single time, unless I deem you to be a troll, idiot, or exercise in futility in which case I will most likely ignore you.

And 'how a book is used' or 'whether a book is used' is an entirely different subject than what I have been discussing here. If you would like to discuss that as pertinent re whether a book is a best seller or not, go for it. You will definitely appear foolish should you try however.

But lets consider that for a bit. If the Bible is as unused and/or irrelevent as one might think based on your line of argument, then why do you suppose there are so many threads started on Bible-based religious themes on these boards, and why is it the Bible itself that is so much challenged? I would think Chairman Mao's book would generate at least a few threads now and then if it was in the same league wouldn't you think?

[Winter wind]

No more!
I feel like we've moved off topic into the realm of porn, and popularity and heavens knows what else.
The Bible is popular, but that has little to do with if it states you should take it literally or not.

I hate to keep jumping up and down on the fact, but what about the quotes about wineskin and the obsolete-ness of the "old covenant" that I pointed out earlier.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Winter wind No more! I feel like we've moved off topic into the realm of porn, and popularity and heavens knows what else. The Bible is popular, but that has little to do with if it states you should take it literally or not. I hate to keep jumping up and down on the fact, but what about the quotes about wineskin and the obsolete-ness of the "old covenant" that I pointed out earlier.

Agreed that we have veered off topic. But once you realize that the Bible is a collection of manuscripts that cannot be expected to want anything, the question has been answered.

Whether the Bible should be taken literally, would also technically be off topic, but it is a better question. As I posted before, it should be taken quite literally as history or poetry or wisdom literature or prophecy or allegory or metaphor or symbolism or whatever any particular passage represents.

[nerdvincent]

Personnally I read Bible the way I read Plato ar Sartre, for its philosophical content, so I'm far from taking it literally. And just like Plato or Sartre, I don't alway agree with it, I read it to make me think and create my own philosophy.
I wanna read other religious books too, they are very funny.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: nerdvincent Personnally I read Bible the way I read Plato ar Sartre, for its philosophical content, so I'm far from taking it literally. And just like Plato or Sartre, I don't alway agree with it, I read it to make me think and create my own philosophy. I wanna read other religious books too, they are very funny.

Some of the Bible is absolutely philosophical, and I read those portions for the philosophical content. Most of the Book of Proverbs is a good example of that. I was taught to read Plato not to assess 'right or wrong' of his reasoning; i.e. not for the purpose of agreeing or not agreeing, but I was taught to read Plato through Plato's eyes; see the world as Plato was seeing it; and analyze his reasoning process within the framework of logic and possibility. And through that exercise, one's own reasoning capability is expanded and enhanced, and the universal truths to be learned are more easily understood.

I try to approach the Bible in exactly the same way.

[rez]

Quote by: Foxfyre Some of the Bible is absolutely philosophical, and I read those portions for the philosophical content. Most of the Book of Proverbs is a good example of that. I was taught to read Plato not to assess 'right or wrong' of his reasoning; i.e. not for the purpose of agreeing or not agreeing, but I was taught to read Plato through Plato's eyes; see the world as Plato was seeing it; and analyze his reasoning process within the framework of logic and possibility. And through that exercise, one's own reasoning capability is expanded and enhanced, and the universal truths to be learned are more easily understood. I try to approach the Bible in exactly the same way.

The individual determines how they want to interpret the bible.

[jazz fork Gun]

Quote by: Suburbanite the opposite of literal is metaphorical, not non-literal

Something that annoys me... the opposite of something isn't its "opposite" but actually "not something"... makes no sense?
The opposite of LOVE isn't HATE, it's apathy, or no love.
The opposite of BLACK isn't WHITE, it's NOT BLACK.
The opposite of ... I'm sure you get the point. Sorry for getting all crazy-technical on you ><;;

Quote by: rez At one point in human history a lot of people thought the world was flat and that that diseases were caused by evil spirits, but those beliefs turned out to be false.

But you say it yourself: TURNED OUT TO BE FALSE. As in, proven otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty, right? So we can believe the Bible in peace until someone has flat-out proof that we shouldn't...

Quote by: Winter wind I hate to keep jumping up and down on the fact, but what about the quotes about wineskin and the obsolete-ness of the "old covenant" that I pointed out earlier.

The Old Testament [and "Old Covenant"] is obsolete. Jesus came down to tell us that. Christianity branched off of Judaism to tell us that. It is more important to follow anything said *later* in the Bible than earlier.