Church rejects interfaith service on its property

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Winter wind Woah there. I'm on your side. But I'm saying, if they want to complain about Christians, there missing out on the good stuff. As to your first thing, I agree, but it isn't good just be be equal. It would be that much cooler to be the "better man." So Christians look that much more tolerant. Not to say Muslims are not, but they certainly don't draw the same kind of fire that Christians do on this site.

I was wondering. I'm sure you'll find that those points are made elsewhere. Perhaps our friends have decided to do something a little less overdone this time.

Being the better man is fine. But as I said before, I think they would view having a Muslim service in their church as a desecration. There's really not a lot of wiggle room there.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood If god supposedly resides in his people, what does it matter what happens on the property? Or is this another example of "my father's house", where Jesus reportedly implied his father owned property? To those of us not interested in excusing their decision, this incident is revealing of both their intolerance of the other faiths they say they welcome and their confusion over who owns the property. Is it god's, the member's who paid for it, the leaders who enjoy its benefits?

Well, I kinda hinted at that first point earlier. But you can't fault them for making a decision based on their belief. Technically, in the OT, the Temple was supposed to be God's dwelling place, but at the crucifixion, the veil separating God from the people was torn down as God came to live within the people that are His. This was finalized at Pentecost.

They welcome the individuals: not the practice of the religion. And regardless of supposed ownership, I believe that all of the above would object to what these people planned, rendering the point moot.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez Funny that you think two wrongs make a right. Of course there are good people and of course there are bad people in this world. How exactly does that support your point of view? What do you think every atheist is arguing about? It is obvious that you don't understand the arguments. You think your religion gives you morals and some type of purpose in life, but it doesn't. You give your own personal purpose in life. God and religion have nothing to do with it. That is exactly why some humans are good and some are bad, it is all subjective personal interests that have nothing to do with jesus, demons, gods, angels, spirits and whatever magical stuff you think is real. You theists are all the same, yet strangely disagree with each other. Of course you even have some theists claiming they are all the same, but alas it can all be explained by each persons personal interests. But for some reason theists can't seem to understand that.

No, I don't think two wrongs make a right. But I do respect the taboos of other faiths and would optimistically hope that they would return the favor.

I really should make an index of things that I have to repeat myself on. High on the list would be: Funny how people like you assume that everyone that disagrees with them simply doesn't understand the question.

Well, that's my business, isn't it? Index of things I always end up repeating myself on instance #2: All faiths are not equal, although many atheists would like to think of them that way because it's easier, lazier, and less conducive to cognitive dissonance.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: gallo But, on the other hand, they didn't invite you to do so. The Baptists in the example did invite 'all faiths' to participate. Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-te?

No, they didn't. I think you need to look at the article again. The Baptists weren't putting on the shindig. They were just renting out the property.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood Then why don't they pay property tax like every other private property owner? And again, who owns the property, god, the congregation, the ministers, the denomination? Who gets to say what the property is used for? Anyway, none of that rationalizing excuses their obviously contradictory statements.

Not everyone pays property taxes, and the exception is not limited to churches. They do, however, pay for upkeep, maintenance, electricity, water, etc., etc. as they also paid for the original construction. I'd say that entitles them to the rights of private property owners.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez It must be because the Christian faith is the trufff...The evil demons are scared of the holy Christians, therefore, try as hard as possible to disprove their faith....

Eh. *shrugs* You said it...not me.

[Jack]

Quote by: phoenix_fire No, they didn't. I think you need to look at the article again. The Baptists weren't putting on the shindig. They were just renting out the property.

That glosses over the paragraph I highlighted:

"Although individuals from all faiths are welcome to worship with us at Hyde Park Baptist Church, the church cannot provide space for the practice of these non-Christian religions on church property," the statement said. "Hyde Park Baptist Church hopes that the AAIM and the community of faith will understand and be tolerant of our church's beliefs that have resulted in this decision."

I've again bolded the sentence that illustrates the lie. They do not, in fact, welcome individuals from all faiths to worship with them. I also emphasized the sentence where, though they are unwilling to show tolerance for other people's beliefs they hope to have their own beliefs tolerated.

Not everyone pays property taxes, and the exception is not limited to churches.

What other entities in the private sector that aren't faith-based receive that advantage?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood That glosses over the paragraph I highlighted: I've again bolded the sentence that illustrates the lie. They do not, in fact, welcome individuals from all faiths to worship with them. I also emphasized the sentence where, though they are unwilling to show tolerance for other people's beliefs they hope to have their own beliefs tolerated. What other entities in the private sector that aren't faith-based receive that advantage?

Non-profit organizations, the elderly, veterans, a few others that I can't think of right now...but these can qualify.

And they invite people of all faiths to worship with them in a Christian service. That sentence in no way indicates that worship services for other religions are welcomed. The sentence is merely to establish that they don't have a policy that excludes individuals of other faiths from simply being on the premises.

[Maryjane]

Oh really? And if my church group wanted to have a nice big Thanksgiving dinner in the local mosque with Bible reading and a delicious honey baked ham, do you think they would let us? I wouldn't expect them to, and the reverse should be true.

Interfaith Thanksgiving Service

AAIM's premiere event is our Interfaith Thanksgiving Service which brings over 1000 people together to share in gratitude for the gifts and blessings of our world. This is a longstanding tradition in Austin and has been going on for 22 years. Please join us for our 23rd Interfaith service to be held on Sunday, November 18th, 2007, at Congregation Beth Israel, located at 3901 Shoal Creek Blvd, just one block north of W. 38th St. in Central Austin. For a Google map, click here. The ceremony will take place at 4:00pm, followed by a celebration reception at 5:00pm. All are welcome!

To answer your question...

Participating congregations: We ask that you bring food dishes that can be shared by all. Please, no pork or shellfish. Dishes containing other meat, vegetables, grains, dairy products, and fish are all welcome.

AAIM

[Alive]

Some of this posts on this thread are absurd.

Religion is all about creating boundaries; separating the sacred from the profane. There is nothing wrong with people of all faiths coming together for Thanksgiving, an American non-religious holiday. But praying together? No thanks! Cultural diversity is a good thing, and that requires that religions not become interchangeable with one another. Keep the Muslims in the Mosques and the Christians in the Churches, doing their own thing, so we don't get one interfaith liberal bland monoculture.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Isherwood What other entities in the private sector that aren't faith-based receive that advantage?

Red Cross? Don't they have the right to determine what goes on outside their buildings?

And what does taxes have to do with anything. Because a church doesn't pay a property tax then anyone and everyone can come and go as they please across the property?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Maryjane Interfaith Thanksgiving Service To answer your question... AAIM

That wasn't the point. The point was about violating that which is sacred to others.

[Jack]

Because a church doesn't pay a property tax then anyone and everyone can come and go as they please across the property?

No, I was just following up your opinion that since it was private property they could decide what went on there by asking why, if they want their property rights like everyone else, they don't pay property taxes like everyone else. It seems to me that too often churches want the rights society grants property owners but not the responsibility that accompanies them, like paying taxes.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Isherwood No, I was just following up your opinion that since it was private property they could decide what went on there by asking why, if they want their property rights like everyone else, they don't pay property taxes like everyone else. It seems to me that too often churches want the rights society grants property owners but not the responsibility that accompanies them, like paying taxes.

Then by that same rule should every group that applies for tax exemption also have to right to property? Red Cross, and other aid groups included?

And how do you define the right of the property for tax exempt groups. Would it be ok to break into a locked church at night, or take objects from their property?

What your suggesting is contradictory to the ideas of libertarian smaller government. You want more rules and regulations on taxation, basically do's and don'ts on how a group can define their property.

[Jack]

Uh, all I was suggesting is a level playing field for anyone who wants to exercise their private property rights. I don't endorse special exceptions for churches. I don't have any opinion on all that political stuff you mentioned.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Isherwood Uh, all I was suggesting is a level playing field for anyone who wants to exercise their private property rights. I don't endorse special exceptions for churches. I don't have any opinion on all that political stuff you mentioned.

If you don't have a suggestion on how to level the field while still protecting the property then why change it at all.

[Winter wind]

It must be because the Christian faith is the trufff...The evil demons are scared of the holy Christians, therefore, try as hard as possible to disprove their faith....

Ma Ma Mia! Danger Will Robinson!
Well, actually you aren't far of from popular Christian opinion. But do Atheist hold Christians in any better esteem?
While you may not condemn us to hell, but your equivalent of it. To popular Atheist opinion Christians are doomed to live a life of ignorance and hypocrisy. That Religion itself is the enemy of science, and the reversion to darker times.

Sites like these are meant (in some ways) to bridge that gap. So that we might leave the ideological entrenchment and talk things out. As cheesy as that sounds...

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Winter wind Ma Ma Mia! Danger Will Robinson! Well, actually you aren't far of from popular Christian opinion. But do Atheist hold Christians in any better esteem? While you may not condemn us to hell, but your equivalent of it. To popular Atheist opinion Christians are doomed to live a life of ignorance and hypocrisy. That Religion itself is the enemy of science, and the reversion to darker times. Sites like these are meant (in some ways) to bridge that gap. So that we might leave the ideological entrenchment and talk things out. As cheesy as that sounds...

Well on the technical level people are right here.... you don't see atheists denying evolution in favor of the obviously out there parts of the bible.

[Winter wind]

Neither do you see Christians denying the Bible in favor for obviously out there parts of metaphysics.

Like life has no meaning.

On a more insane note, you don't see (a lot) of Christians denying the Bible in favor of obviously out there parts of evolution.

The above was just a twist of words. Really without point.

But I get what you mean.

Theist in general more willing to throw out logic then Atheists, however, you must admit, there is a certain amount of animosity against Theists on the part of Atheists (at least in general).

I personally think disdain for Theists is just as likely to appear in Atheists as disdain for Atheists in a Christian. But thats just me.