Simplicity breeds Complexity: Why Deism Fails

[Lullaby Chainer]

I think we can all agree.. we have abundant evidence that this is true (Simplicity breeds Complexity).

Simple elements =

hydrogen-cyanide

hydrogen-cyanide + hydrogen =

nucleotides =

polynecleotides + evolution =

RNA + (amino acids = polypeptides =) proteins =

DNA

DNA + lipid shells = cells

EVOLUTION

multicellular organisms.. more complex and more complex and more complex..

brains.. imposable thumbs.. eyes.. organs..

=

art.. culture.. philosophy.. religion :(.. science ..

REWIND

Hydrogen and Helium..

intense energy.. =

tons of new complex elements

This world is founded on the principle that simple things become complex. THERE IS NO COMPLEXITY IN THE WORLD THAT DID NOT GET THERE FROM SIMPLICITY. The only argument that can be made against that is that which science is only now embarking.. things like.. "before the Big Bang".

Woah.. what about GAWDS?

To be a god, in my book, you have to create the universe and you cannot be created yourself.

I propose one attribute further.

Why call a simplicity a god? "God" has very unique connotations and I'm afraid many deists elude to those connotations when all they believe in is a simple force behind the curtains.

If you believe in a god.. theistic or deistic.. do you believe it, him, or her to be complex? How do you explain that?


I've never used this argument to this extent.. so I'm sure I'll be able to learn from posters on this thread and refine my argument or ditch it.

[Winter wind]

Thank you Lullaby.
You don't mind if i copy this over to another thread right?

o and to argue. God is the simplest explanation of all.

God is
God makes hydrogen
The rest fall from there.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Winter wind Thank you Lullaby. You don't mind if i copy this over to another thread right?

I don't mind

Quote by: Winter wing o and to argue. God is the simplest explanation of all. God is God makes hydrogen The rest fall from there.

Dude.. you gotta stop calling yourself a Christian. You're like.. a Jesus following deist. lol

[Winter wind]

Well what is your definition of a Christian

Mine is following the path Jesus set.
Faith in a promise God made.
Set of ideals to live by. Including Redemption over Retribution. Kindness over Judgement (this is a Christian value, I promise), charity and an eternal soul.
The rest (unless i forgot something) is superfluous.

I don't know if thats Christian or a Jesus following deist.
But that's my faith.

[Jack]

God is

How is that a simple explanation?

[Winter wind]

nice.

but how is "hydrogen is" simpler.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Winter wind nice. but how is "hydrogen is" simpler.

How can something be so simple yet be able to hear and answer our prayers?

Or do you not believe in prayers either? (that sounds rude, but you're like the most non-Christian-Christian I've ever met )

[Winter wind]

How can something be so simple yet be able to hear and answer our prayers?

Jewish proverb "God punishes us by answering our prayers"

Im all for representative democracy cause if God answered all our prayers, we would be, simply, screwed.

Plus, prayer isn't necessary cause God knows what we're going to ask. I pray to thank him. Even if he already knows im thankful, cause it reminds me to be thankful.

[Jack]

but how is "hydrogen is" simpler

Chemical elements are ordinary, whereas a supernatural being is extraordinary.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Winter wind Jewish proverb "God punishes us by answering our prayers" Im all for representative democracy cause if God answered all our prayers, we would be, simply, screwed. Plus, prayer isn't necessary cause God knows what we're going to ask. I pray to thank him. Even if he already knows im thankful, cause it reminds me to be thankful.

Again. Reworded.

How can something be so simple yet know what we are going to ask?

You can't pretend you pass my argument and retain that you believe in a God that .. really.. does ANYTHING or is ANYTHING in the Bible.

[Winter wind]

How about this for simplicity. It's not a perfect analogy, but closer.

designer makes a computer and puts a real time war game on it. creates us in that computer and creates the systems. God can do what ever he likes with the game. He knows everything about the game because he made it. So his creations because become self conscious and realize they are in a game design. The programs see no out right evidence of a maker or that God is causing little things to happen, so they call the computer designs "science laws."

God can do anything he wants cause he made the system we are in. He exists everywhere. (not part of analogy)

Its kinda simple. Yours is the computer program just was one day.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Winter wind How about this for simplicity. It's not a perfect analogy, but closer. designer makes a computer and puts a real time war game on it. creates us in that computer and creates the systems. God can do what ever he likes with the game. He knows everything about the game because he made it. So his creations because become self conscious and realize they are in a game design. The programs see no out right evidence of a maker or that God is causing little things to happen, so they call the computer designs "science laws." God can do anything he wants cause he made the system we are in. He exists everywhere. (not part of analogy) Its kinda simple. Yours is the computer program just was one day.

That would imply that God evolved or developed from simplicity into what it is now from outside our system. That analogy fails..

[FenianKiwi]

Winter, I think you're wrong in you statement 'God is the simplest explanation of all.' Any deliberately created system is at it's origin, of necessity, less complex that it's creator; a computer program is less complex than a programmer. Watt was more complex than his steam engine, I am more complex than the guitars I make. If God exists, God must, of logical necessity, be more complex and more highly ordered than the Universe. Since the Universe is infinite, God would have to be more than infinite, an impossibility.

But Lullaby makes a very perceptive point - simple sytems can become more complex (usually through the addition of energy). This strikes strikes me as a blow to Godism, since the Universe would eventually become more complex than God. I'm sure Spinoza would be delighted, but it gives tradtional creation mythology a drubbing.

Another reason God can't be 'the simplest explanation of all' is Occam's razor, which tells us that we should not multiply entities needlessly. An uncaused or self-caused Universe requires only one entity - the Universe. A God-created Universe requires two - the Universe + God.

[shawmutt]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Again. Reworded. How can something be so simple yet know what we are going to ask? You can't pretend you pass my argument and retain that you believe in a God that .. really.. does ANYTHING or is ANYTHING in the Bible.

Off topic. What does the Bible have to do with Deism? For that matter, what does proving evolution have to do with Deism?

How can something be so simple yet be able to hear and answer our prayers?

Most deists do not believe that God listens to and/or answers prayers.

Is this a discussion of deism or another attack on revealed religion?

Quote by: FenianKiwi Since the Universe is infinite, God would have to be more than infinite, an impossibility.

Unstated major premise. With 90%-94% of the universe unknown except by the absence of matter we can measure, how can you make the presumption of an "infinite universe"?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: shawmutt Off topic. What does the Bible have to do with Deism? For that matter, what does proving evolution have to do with Deism? Most deists do not believe that God listens to and/or answers prayers. Is this a discussion of deism or another attack on revealed religion?

You didn't finish the OP, did you?

Quote by: Me If you believe in a god.. theistic or deistic.. do you believe it, him, or her to be complex? How do you explain that?

Winter is a theist.

[shawmutt]

Then perhaps the title should be "why theism fails". I'm not sure where deism fits in the thread other than an afterthought--"oh yeah and deists too".

[Athena]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I think we can all agree.. we have abundant evidence that this is true (Simplicity breeds Complexity). Simple elements = hydrogen-cyanide hydrogen-cyanide + hydrogen = nucleotides = polynecleotides + evolution = RNA + (amino acids = polypeptides =) proteins = DNA DNA + lipid shells = cells EVOLUTION multicellular organisms.. more complex and more complex and more complex.. brains.. imposable thumbs.. eyes.. organs.. = art.. culture.. philosophy.. religion :(.. science .. REWIND Hydrogen and Helium.. intense energy.. = tons of new complex elements This world is founded on the principle that simple things become complex. THERE IS NO COMPLEXITY IN THE WORLD THAT DID NOT GET THERE FROM SIMPLICITY. The only argument that can be made against that is that which science is only now embarking.. things like.. "before the Big Bang". Woah.. what about GAWDS? To be a god, in my book, you have to create the universe and you cannot be created yourself. I propose one attribute further. Why call a simplicity a god? "God" has very unique connotations and I'm afraid many deists elude to those connotations when all they believe in is a simple force behind the curtains. If you believe in a god.. theistic or deistic.. do you believe it, him, or her to be complex? How do you explain that? I've never used this argument to this extent.. so I'm sure I'll be able to learn from posters on this thread and refine my argument or ditch it.

When you ask if God is a him or her, you are applying a human quality to God. God is no more him or her than hydrogen.

Nothing is everything and everything is none. String theory theorizes that in the beginning is chaos, and out of the chaos comes order. The concept that is the foundation of democracy is, reason, is the controlling force of the universe. This is not something with human quality. It is the sequence of order. It is not supernatural, but is nature.

[Athena]

Quote by: FenianKiwi Winter, I think you're wrong in you statement 'God is the simplest explanation of all.' Any deliberately created system is at it's origin, of necessity, less complex that it's creator; a computer program is less complex than a programmer. Watt was more complex than his steam engine, I am more complex than the guitars I make. If God exists, God must, of logical necessity, be more complex and more highly ordered than the Universe. Since the Universe is infinite, God would have to be more than infinite, an impossibility. But Lullaby makes a very perceptive point - simple sytems can become more complex (usually through the addition of energy). This strikes strikes me as a blow to Godism, since the Universe would eventually become more complex than God. I'm sure Spinoza would be delighted, but it gives tradtional creation mythology a drubbing. Another reason God can't be 'the simplest explanation of all' is Occam's razor, which tells us that we should not multiply entities needlessly. An uncaused or self-caused Universe requires only one entity - the Universe. A God-created Universe requires two - the Universe + God.

Is chaos less complex than the order? Didn't Spinoza agree with Eastern philoosphy that God is the universe? There is no duelism here. Nothing is everything and everything is nothing. String theory is not theism and yet it can be applied to a concept of God.

Who creates who I am? Each day of my life, am I not creating who I am? Kuldeep speaks of consciousness. Am I separate from my consciousness. Is God separate from consciousness? Am I separate from God? If my foot were separate from my body, would it retain its order for long?

[Athena]

Quote by: Winter wind How about this for simplicity. It's not a perfect analogy, but closer. designer makes a computer and puts a real time war game on it. creates us in that computer and creates the systems. God can do what ever he likes with the game. He knows everything about the game because he made it. So his creations because become self conscious and realize they are in a game design. The programs see no out right evidence of a maker or that God is causing little things to happen, so they call the computer designs "science laws." God can do anything he wants cause he made the system we are in. He exists everywhere. (not part of analogy) Its kinda simple. Yours is the computer program just was one day.

Once order comes out of chaos it is self perpetuating.

[rez]

Quote by: shawmutt Then perhaps the title should be "why theism fails". I'm not sure where deism fits in the thread other than an afterthought--"oh yeah and deists too".

yeah you are mostly right, however, thinking that something created the universe is a claim that has no evidence. Since it has no evidence it leads me to think you are willing to accept any claim that has no evidence. I would assume that is not how you lead your life in most cases, so I would think you shouldn't in this case.

You gotta admit it is just you having fun with your imagination.