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Kamehameha34 · Nov 10, 2007, 08:45 pm

The suggestions that something originated from the imagination and that it is real aren't diametrically opposite.

Imagine you've never encountered an elephant, and have never heard of one. If you were to "dream it up", that obviously doesn't mean that they don't exist. Therefore, thinking something up without evidence doesn't mean that it is false. To propose that something is either "Dreamt up or false" is thereby a false dilemma.

This "Oh come on you just thought it up" is just a repackaged ad ignorantium fallacy.

nerdvincent · Nov 10, 2007, 09:16 pm

From now on I believe in pink, latin speaking unicorns disappearing at noon for health purpose. I never saw one of them, but since people told me to give them 30$ every week or she will send me to hell and that there is no proof those beast don't exist, I'll believe.

See my point?

Kamehameha34 · Nov 10, 2007, 09:35 pm

Quote:

See my point?

No, because you don't have a point. You're employing another fallacy - Appeal to ridicule.

Any point you expect me to "see" must be in syllogism format if you want me to take them seriously. Pure rhetoric won't get you anywhere with any logician worth his weight in salt.

nerdvincent · Nov 10, 2007, 09:47 pm

Sorry for my irony then, I will translate it into 2 questions.
Do you believe in something just because we can't disprove it, or is there any other valuable reason?
What, exept tradition, makes you believe more in one religion than another?

nerdvincent · Nov 10, 2007, 09:49 pm

Oh, and by the way, could you explain me what's the logician group for debate? I'm looking to join one of them.

Kamehameha34 · Nov 10, 2007, 09:51 pm

I haven't yet supported "believing" anything.

Belief vs. Disbelief is also a dalse dilemma. While they are diametric opposites, one who has no disbelief for a claim does not necessarily have belief for it. The third option is a complete absence of believe, and it is the most sensible when there is a complete absence of evidence in both directions.

Nothing makes me believe in a religion - and you'll do well to know that not all who argue against atheists on this forum are christians.

Kamehameha34 · Nov 10, 2007, 09:52 pm

Mine is the only logician's group for this domain, so if you want to join the link in my signature should take you directly to the application page.

nerdvincent · Nov 10, 2007, 09:58 pm

Interesting point of view.
Of course, there is more than 2 clans fighting. The post wasn't adressed especially to you, but the christians fundies alone. The fact is that I thought you were one of them.
Deeply sorry.

HelioPrime · Nov 10, 2007, 10:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

I see no difference at all.

What you see. A christian might not see it that way.

Wheres the proof god isn't a complex being who always existed? If you don't have proof why should I believe you that there certainly isn't a complex god?

**Jack** · Nov 11, 2007, 12:15 am

Quote:

The suggestions that something originated from the imagination and that it is real aren't diametrically opposite.

You're arguing your own interpretation. I didn't pose the statement you are contesting.

Quote:

Wheres the proof god isn't a complex being who always existed? If you don't have proof why should I believe you that there certainly isn't a complex god?

How many negative positions would you have me prove? A positive contention requires support. Without it, there's no need to support my refusal to take that contention seriously. There's no evidence to support the idea of a god of any description. I don't have to provide evidence for that which hasn't been shown to exist outside the imagination.

Kamehameha34 · Nov 11, 2007, 01:06 am

Quote:

You're arguing your own interpretation.

Saying that something is "just" from the imagination implies falsity. If you're phrasing doesn't properly belie your thoughts as you attest, then are we finally on the same page that the god claim is unknown?

Athena · Nov 11, 2007, 02:36 am

This discussion is hopeless. It has nothing to do with Deism, and is as stupid as arguing gravity. Surely we experience things fall to the earth, but why assume that is gravity? All manifestation is the result of order. Why assume like gravity causes things to fall, God causes the order? If we insist God does impossible things, then obviously this God is fales, right? What if we insist God is the order and can only do possible things?

I am mean we can not jump off a 10 foot building and pray to gravity for the power of flight, and be granted the power of flight, so why be just as silly regarding God? As I understand the argument, by imagining the impossible, that proves God doesn't exist. If you think what I am saying doesn't make sense, you are right, and neither does the arguing about the existence of God.

HelioPrime · Nov 11, 2007, 10:55 am

Same round of the mill, "without empirical evidence god cannot exist" arguement.

**Jack** · Nov 11, 2007, 11:03 am

Quote:

Saying that something is "just" from the imagination implies falsity.

No, it doesn't. It does imply that context is important. What we imagine has a reality on a different order than those things that have a reality in the physical world. Luck and good fortune are realities to many, but only within their minds. There's no evidence of a physical reality to them.

Athena · Nov 11, 2007, 11:58 am

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

No, it doesn't. It does imply that context is important. What we imagine has a reality on a different order than those things that have a reality in the physical world. Luck and good fortune are realities to many, but only within their minds. There's no evidence of a physical reality to them.

Oh boy, oh boy, something worth debating in this thread. :) Is good luck a reality and is there away we can control for it? This is identical to asking does God answer our prayers? and arguing if this God does or does not exist. both questions are equal, because of the reality of cause and effect.

I argue, that we are as lucky or unlucky as we believe we are. For this reason, luck is a reality, same as God is a reality.

**Jack** · Nov 11, 2007, 12:08 pm

But not a physical reality. It's a reality of perception, one you call into being by believing it and expecting to "see" it. It is indeed the same with gods. If you believe it, expect to see evidence of it, it becomes a reality of perception. But that doesn't make it a physical reality, something that can be perceived by anyone. It's within your mind, not within the physical world.

Osborn F Enready · Nov 11, 2007, 12:38 pm

Good luck Ish, don't hurt your head beating it against this wall.

**Jack** · Nov 11, 2007, 12:44 pm

My room has padded walls. Is that unusual? :eek:

Kamehameha34 · Nov 11, 2007, 01:07 pm

Quote:

No, it doesn't. It does imply that context is important. What we imagine has a reality on a different order than those things that have a reality in the physical world. Luck and good fortune are realities to many, but only within their minds. There's no evidence of a physical reality to them

I agree with the bolded section. What I disagree with is that "different order" implies false.

Anything without supporting or negating evidence is unknown, whether it's imagined or not.

**Jack** · Nov 11, 2007, 01:10 pm

Quote:

What I disagree with is that "different order" implies false.

Implications are of your own imagining, something I can't correct. Quit trying to read that implication into my post and you should be fine.

Nov 10, 2007, 09:16 pm	#62 (permalink) (top)
nerdvincent NerdyHippieThing 3.1 Location: Who cares? Posts: 899	From now on I believe in pink, latin speaking unicorns disappearing at noon for health purpose. I never saw one of them, but since people told me to give them 30$ every week or she will send me to hell and that there is no proof those beast don't exist, I'll believe. See my point? I think, I'm free.

Nov 10, 2007, 09:47 pm	#64 (permalink) (top)
nerdvincent NerdyHippieThing 3.1 Location: Who cares? Posts: 899	Sorry for my irony then, I will translate it into 2 questions. Do you believe in something just because we can't disprove it, or is there any other valuable reason? What, exept tradition, makes you believe more in one religion than another? I think, I'm free.

Nov 10, 2007, 09:49 pm	#65 (permalink) (top)
nerdvincent NerdyHippieThing 3.1 Location: Who cares? Posts: 899	Oh, and by the way, could you explain me what's the logician group for debate? I'm looking to join one of them. I think, I'm free.

Nov 10, 2007, 09:58 pm	#68 (permalink) (top)
nerdvincent NerdyHippieThing 3.1 Location: Who cares? Posts: 899	Interesting point of view. Of course, there is more than 2 clans fighting. The post wasn't adressed especially to you, but the christians fundies alone. The fact is that I thought you were one of them. Deeply sorry. I think, I'm free.

Nov 11, 2007, 10:55 am	#73 (permalink) (top)
HelioPrime Hucking Fuskies Location: Conn Posts: 2,511	Same round of the mill, "without empirical evidence god cannot exist" arguement. What do you say to an atheist who sneezes? Yourdeadthatsit! - Dane Cook

Nov 10, 2007, 08:45 pm	#61 (permalink) (top)
Kamehameha34 The dingos! Posts: 4,458	The suggestions that something originated from the imagination and that it is real aren't diametrically opposite. Imagine you've never encountered an elephant, and have never heard of one. If you were to "dream it up", that obviously doesn't mean that they don't exist. Therefore, thinking something up without evidence doesn't mean that it is false. To propose that something is either "Dreamt up or false" is thereby a false dilemma. This "Oh come on you just thought it up" is just a repackaged ad ignorantium fallacy.

Nov 10, 2007, 09:51 pm	#66 (permalink) (top)
Kamehameha34 The dingos! Posts: 4,458	I haven't yet supported "believing" anything. Belief vs. Disbelief is also a dalse dilemma. While they are diametric opposites, one who has no disbelief for a claim does not necessarily have belief for it. The third option is a complete absence of believe, and it is the most sensible when there is a complete absence of evidence in both directions. Nothing makes me believe in a religion - and you'll do well to know that not all who argue against atheists on this forum are christians.

Nov 10, 2007, 09:52 pm	#67 (permalink) (top)
Kamehameha34 The dingos! Posts: 4,458	Mine is the only logician's group for this domain, so if you want to join the link in my signature should take you directly to the application page.

Nov 11, 2007, 02:36 am	#72 (permalink) (top)
Athena Volcanic Erupter Location: Oregon Posts: 5,174	This discussion is hopeless. It has nothing to do with Deism, and is as stupid as arguing gravity. Surely we experience things fall to the earth, but why assume that is gravity? All manifestation is the result of order. Why assume like gravity causes things to fall, God causes the order? If we insist God does impossible things, then obviously this God is fales, right? What if we insist God is the order and can only do possible things? I am mean we can not jump off a 10 foot building and pray to gravity for the power of flight, and be granted the power of flight, so why be just as silly regarding God? As I understand the argument, by imagining the impossible, that proves God doesn't exist. If you think what I am saying doesn't make sense, you are right, and neither does the arguing about the existence of God.

Nov 11, 2007, 12:08 pm	#76 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,775	But not a physical reality. It's a reality of perception, one you call into being by believing it and expecting to "see" it. It is indeed the same with gods. If you believe it, expect to see evidence of it, it becomes a reality of perception. But that doesn't make it a physical reality, something that can be perceived by anyone. It's within your mind, not within the physical world. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Nov 11, 2007, 12:38 pm	#77 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Good luck Ish, don't hurt your head beating it against this wall. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Nov 11, 2007, 12:44 pm	#78 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,775	My room has padded walls. Is that unusual? :eek: The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)