Life

[HelioPrime]

Not sure if this is the best place for the topic but the question is: How did rocks and gas from early earth evolve into simple forms of life?

So to answer we have 3 possible answers people might agree on:

A) Some deity (we'll use god for now) created the basic life.
B) Rock and gas simply became life thru some process perhaps devolping into a virus or some other non-life form.
C) Aliens seeded the earth.

Well the answer? Not sure, I'll use an arguement assuming the atheist position:
-Rule out A because god has already been disproven.
-Rule out aliens because we have no evidence to support their existance

-So the answer is B? Is it B because there is no other possible senario? Or is the life question something we just plain don't know?

[Jack]

We are having difficulty recreating the exact same conditions in the lab that existed when life began and we certainly aren't seeing life created on a regular basis, so whatever the conditions were that caused the first lifeform to emerge must be so precise and so rare that we may never hit on just the right combination of factors. We may never even know all the factors we should be including. What if precisely the right volcanic explosion or an impact by a meteor were what sparked life? How would we ever determine that now?

I suspect we may never be able to say with much degree of certainty how life began. But then, I'm not a scientist.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Here's an excellent video with an up to date explanation of the origin of life. He's got a cool British accent so you know he must be smart..

YouTube - The Origin of Life made easy

While you're at it.. here's my channel.. subscribe!

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

And we do have evidence for aliens. Observation gives us extrasolar planets.. statistics gives us an insanely high number of possible life-supporting planets. We have evidence that it can happen.. we have very slight or medium or great (depending on the chance of life occurring on a life-supporting planet (which is obviously greater than zero, mind you)) chance of their being aliens based on statistics and observation of extrasolar planets and a basic understanding of how an earth-like planet could form. I'm claiming this is evidence.. not proof (I make the distinction because of experiences on this board).

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime Not sure if this is the best place for the topic but the question is: How did rocks and gas from early earth evolve into simple forms of life? So to answer we have 3 possible answers people might agree on: A) Some deity (we'll use god for now) created the basic life. B) Rock and gas simply became life thru some process perhaps devolping into a virus or some other non-life form. C) Aliens seeded the earth. Well the answer? Not sure, I'll use an arguement assuming the atheist position: -Rule out A because god has already been disproven. -Rule out aliens because we have no evidence to support their existance -So the answer is B? Is it B because there is no other possible senario? Or is the life question something we just plain don't know?

Rule out A because it doesn't answer the question being asked. Saying "God did it" doesn't explain how god did it. If you can't explain how god did it, then how do you know god did it? It is looking in the totally wrong direction.

And if we are going to discuss how life began, then let's use the actual terms. Who said life came from rock and gas?

If you want to suggest that life was created intentionally with a designed purpose, then you better support that claim. Also, even if life was created with a designed intention does that mean life can't be created naturally without a designer?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: rez And if we are going to discuss how life began, then let's use the actual terms. Who said life came from rock and gas? [/b]

So what would be the real terms of great one?

The primitive earth consisted of rock, gas, and water depending on the timeline your viewing it in. These were what earth consisted of, unless you want to include a meteor containing alien organisms.

Were simple organisms that consumed carbon and producted oxygen as a waste the first life? If so how does that come to be? How would a meteor to use Isherwoods idea create life?

I guess the question is what possible senario could give a rock a chance to evolve or become an organic entity?

I think this is the toughest question to answer if you firmly stand agaisnt any notion of the supernatural as relating to creation. Not to say life was created over 6 days of course, but how can rock become life without some sort of interference.

I guess we could argue it based on mathamatical probability, giving aliens, god, and other choices % based chances of occuring and then guessing the best answer.

The answer is just grasping at straws, but I think this question is one of the biggests reasons we can't discount faith.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime So what would be the real terms of great one? The primitive earth consisted of rock, gas, and water depending on the timeline your viewing it in. These were what earth consisted of, unless you want to include a meteor containing alien organisms. Were simple organisms that consumed carbon and producted oxygen as a waste the first life? If so how does that come to be? How would a meteor to use Isherwoods idea create life? I guess the question is what possible senario could give a rock a chance to evolve or become an organic entity? I think this is the toughest question to answer if you firmly stand agaisnt any notion of the supernatural as relating to creation. Not to say life was created over 6 days of course, but how can rock become life without some sort of interference.

dna = replication

how did dna appear?

primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia

dna = long chain molecule with four nucleotides

where did nucleotides come from?

Hydrogen-cyanide and ammonia can form adenine under primordial earth conditions (this has been proven in experiments).

Adenine is a nucleotide in dna.

The other three nucleotides have been formed in similar experiments that mimic the primordial earth (if not the same one.. not sure).

Next, the nucleotides joined together to make polynucleotides in a catalyst abundant on the primordial earth: montmorillonite. This has also been replicated and proven in experiments.

Some of these polynucleotides could replicate, like RNA. Some were better adapted to the environment than others.. thus they evolved into DNA over hundreds of millions of years.

Difference between RNA and DNA is that DNA needs proteins. Proteins are made of amino acids.

where did amino acids come from?

In the same experiments that proved that hydrogen-cyanide and ammonia can produce nucleotides, amino acids were also produced including long chains of amino acids called polypeptides.

As mentioned before, montmorillonite is an amazing catalyst (abundant on the primordial earth) for complex molecules. It gives us nucleotides, amino acids, and also.. lipids.

Lipids have a natural tendency to clump together forming spherical structures called mycelles.

RNA and DNA that attracted these lipids would then find themselves protected inside a mycell membrane. Because they were better protected, they better survived.

There we have it. The first primitive cell.

Granted this is a new theory in its beginning stages.. but it's picking up a lot of speed, support, and evidence.

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime So what would be the real terms of great one? The primitive earth consisted of rock, gas, and water depending on the timeline your viewing it in. These were what earth consisted of, unless you want to include a meteor containing alien organisms. Were simple organisms that consumed carbon and producted oxygen as a waste the first life? If so how does that come to be? How would a meteor to use Isherwoods idea create life? I guess the question is what possible senario could give a rock a chance to evolve or become an organic entity? I think this is the toughest question to answer if you firmly stand agaisnt any notion of the supernatural as relating to creation. Not to say life was created over 6 days of course, but how can rock become life without some sort of interference. I guess we could argue it based on mathamatical probability, giving aliens, god, and other choices % based chances of occuring and then guessing the best answer. The answer is just grasping at straws, but I think this question is one of the biggests reasons we can't discount faith.

You see, you are not asking questions to learn, however, you are asking questions to make the current explanations seem ridiculous.

If you are asking questions to learn then refer to Chainers post.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: rez You see, you are not asking questions to learn, however, you are asking questions to make the current explanations seem ridiculous. If you are asking questions to learn then refer to Chainers post.

We'll believe it when we see it possible. For now its just more of chance theory on how the building blocks might have evolved.

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime We'll believe it when we see it possible.

um it is a real possibility that can be falsified and tested. Information about life previously unknown has been discovered because of these facts. Just because what has been discovered conflicts with your layman fairy tales does not mean this is not possible.

For now its just more of chance theory on how the building blocks might have evolved.

Yeah, what is your point? That gives you the right to live in la la land or something and forget about what is real?

A scientist is only being honest and fair when he/she says they can't provide all the facts. Theists on the other hand claim they have all the facts and use the fairness and honesty against the scientist. What a dishonest trick their faith has taught them.

[ItsDarts]

If we can assume that everything that exists contains atoms of some kind or another then we can easily see how possible it is for anything to form. For example, lets take a grain of sand...

Sand is mostly a compound of silicon and oxygen (SiO2) which has an RMM of
60. As no two grains of sand are identical in size we must assume a
standard volume. For the sake of this calculation I have assumed a volume
of 1mm3. From tables the density of Silicon Dioxide is 2.3gcm-1 , so the
mass of 1 grain of sand is 2.3/1000g. The avogadro constant (6 x 1023) is
the number of atoms in one mole of substance. So,

(2.3 x 10-3 )/60= 3.8 x 10-5

(3.8 x 10-5) x (6 x 1023) = 23 x 1018 atoms

Or 23 million, million, million atoms

Source

Atoms by themselves are not life. It requires that atoms combine with other atoms of different material to form compounds. To date, there are hundreds of different atoms (Periodic Tables). All atoms start out as Hydrogen (a nucleous with 1 electron and 1 proton) add a protons and electron to this atom, you now have helium. Both of these are produced by stars (Our Sun) If there are 23 bazillion atoms in a grain of sand, the number in the size of the sun is almost incomprehensible. Now multiply that by 30 billion billion suns all producing hydrogen and helium and many other trace elements, and it seems almost impossible that something looking like life or any other "thing" cant just form by mere collision of atoms.

Anyway, with all these atoms floating around the universe, its bound to have combinations that form many different things like gas, rock, proteins, molecules RNA and DNA. Once life forms, evolution takes over and that is a whole other science.

[Alive]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Here's an excellent video with an up to date explanation of the origin of life. He's got a cool British accent so you know he must be smart.. YouTube - The Origin of Life made easy

This is an excellent video. Everyone reading this thread should watch it instead of spouting baseless speculation. Rocks evolving? :rolleyes:

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Alive This is an excellent video. Everyone reading this thread should watch it instead of spouting baseless speculation. Rocks evolving? :rolleyes:

Agreed, and every atheist should put this link in their sig and when asked how did all this (life) get here, point to the link. When the theist asks, "well, where did all the atoms to form these chemicals come from? Tell them to go read up on the Big Bang..... and when they ask who or what started the big bang, point them in the direction of String Theory. When they ask where strings came from, tell them that energy/matter can't be created or destroyed (as far as we know) so the logical conclusion is that energy has always existed or we just don't know (yet). But none of these processes requires a god. At least not one who concerns himself with the life on this tiny, miniscule spec of a planet.

[Athena]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Here's an excellent video with an up to date explanation of the origin of life. He's got a cool British accent so you know he must be smart.. YouTube - The Origin of Life made easy While you're at it.. here's my channel.. subscribe! YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. And we do have evidence for aliens. Observation gives us extrasolar planets.. statistics gives us an insanely high number of possible life-supporting planets. We have evidence that it can happen.. we have very slight or medium or great (depending on the chance of life occurring on a life-supporting planet (which is obviously greater than zero, mind you)) chance of their being aliens based on statistics and observation of extrasolar planets and a basic understanding of how an earth-like planet could form. I'm claiming this is evidence.. not proof (I make the distinction because of experiences on this board).

:) I like the alien possiblity. I have all the "Chariot of the Gods" books I think. This author presents a very convincing argument with pictures of physical evidence. Not that I would bet my life on this theory, but I don't cross it off the list.

The reason we have not had alien contact since biblical times, is the magnetic force of the earth has been too strong to allow aliens to enter.
The core of our earth is changing and the magnetic field is weakening, making it more likely we will have alian contact, as many have predicted, including the statues on East Island, the bible, and African and South American tribes, who believe they were ordered to care for the earth until "the return".

I think it is Jeremiah or Ezekiel that discribes what could be a space ship landing, and many things in the bible make sense if it is talking about aliens interacting with humans.

[ItsDarts]

I think it is Jeremiah or Ezekiel that discribes what could be a space ship landing, and many things in the bible make sense if it is talking about aliens interacting with humans.

Drugs and dreams and halicinations all factor into the crap in the bible. People often forget that drugs were prevelant back in those days, as was epilepsy, a "vision" causing disease. Back then they called them "prophets" today we give them lithium

[grandpa]

Quote by: ItsDarts Drugs and dreams and halicinations all factor into the crap in the bible. People often forget that drugs were prevelant back in those days, as was epilepsy, a "vision" causing disease.

I don't remember the specific details, but I've heard some witch trials may have been guided by hallucinogenic properties in certain wheat supplies. Anyone else hear of this?

Grandpa h.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: grandpa I don't remember the specific details, but I've heard some witch trials may have been guided by hallucinogenic properties in certain wheat supplies. Anyone else hear of this? Grandpa h.

I haven't heard this, but I do know that some fungi can cause hallucinations as well as many other plants the humans eat, including pot, mushrooms, cactus, herbs used for teas, etc... Fungus can get into wheat supplies very easily if not stored properly. In the south USA, psylocibin mushrooms and peyote cactus grows to this day. Vitamin deficiencies can be a major cause of depression and other social disorders like ADD and ADHD. I suspect that none of these mind altering natural plants and vitamins are ever taken into account when debating the "visions" of the ancients because, well, it's pretty hard (if not impossible) to prove, but it can't be denied that this stuff has been around long before recorded history.

[Athena]

Quote by: grandpa I don't remember the specific details, but I've heard some witch trials may have been guided by hallucinogenic properties in certain wheat supplies. Anyone else hear of this? Grandpa h.

It is contaminated rye, not wheat.

There are several psychological factors that could have contributed to the general mass hysteria of the Salem Witch Hunts. One interesting factor could have been the use of ergot which is a substance in rye. The Puritans made bread with rye, and ergot may have been the culprit in causing lots of the strange behavior exhibited by the witnesses and the accusers. Ergot is a unique substance in that it can cause one to experience symptoms that are similar to the symptoms one experiences while on LSD. Therefore, it could be possible that ergot was one of the influencing factors in causing the Salem Witch Hunts (Gormley,22). As we all know, the use of LSD influences the brain, so, it is not too far a stretch that ergot would do the same.

Wikipedia

This relates to the question about life, because there is a question about how we determine what is real. Hallucinatic mushrooms, wine and other substances have been used by people, to know truth beyond the truth we experience without chemicals messing up our brains. We might want to pay attention to how information is known.

[Jack]

Just ran across this that relates to the OP:

Recent probes inside comets show it is overwhelmingly likely that life began in space, according to a new paper by Cardiff University scientists. Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe and colleagues at the University's Centre for Astrobiology have long argued the case for panspermia - the theory that life began inside comets and then spread to habitable planets across the galaxy. A recent BBC Horizon documentary traced the development of the theory. Now the team claims that findings from space probes sent to investigate passing comets reveal how the first organisms could have formed. The 2005 Deep Impact mission to Comet Tempel 1 discovered a mixture of organic and clay particles inside the comet. One theory for the origins of life proposes that clay particles acted as a catalyst, converting simple organic molecules into more complex structures. The 2004 Stardust Mission to Comet Wild 2 found a range of complex hydrocarbon molecules - potential building blocks for life. The Cardiff team suggests that radioactive elements can keep water in liquid form in comet interiors for millions of years, making them potentially ideal "incubators" for early life. They also point out that the billions of comets in our solar system and across the galaxy contain far more clay than the early Earth did. The researchers calculate the odds of life starting on Earth rather than inside a comet at one trillion trillion (10 to the power of 24) to one against. Professor Wickramasinghe said: "The findings of the comet missions, which surprised many, strengthen the argument for panspermia. We now have a mechanism for how it could have happened. All the necessary elements - clay, organic molecules and water - are there. The longer time scale and the greater mass of comets make it overwhelmingly more likely that life began in space than on earth."

Did Life Begin In Space? New Evidence From Comets

[grandpa]

Quote by: Athena It is contaminated rye, not wheat.

Thanks for the correction. I knew it was something like that.

Grandpa h.

[ItsDarts]

Good find Isher, it makes sense since it's seems that comets brought water to the planet as well.