No God?

[Jack]

There's no sense to the presumption that simply because humans can create something then everything that exists must have been created in the same fashion.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Masoom Someone please answer these questions after watching this video. Islam : Proof That God Exists Thanks

I love the old, outdated, completely destroyed argument form design. It's so rediculous it is hardly worthy of ANY response. I think Isher pretty much covered it.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Isherwood There's no sense to the presumption that simply because humans can create something then everything that exists must have been created in the same fashion.

Well, there is plenty of sence in it. You just have to use your head a little and stop looking on one side of the wall. That is the whole point of my entire topic.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Isherwood Same old nonsense trying to disguise itself as logic and rationality. First; Design is a human construct. There is no absolute standard for design that is consistent across the universe. Are planets all "designed" the same? Are galaxies? Is a spiral galaxy the standard model of design? Of course not. "Design" is in the eye of the beholder. Our bodies would have to be examples of rather poor design if they were indeed "designed" by a "designer". They are explainable as products of evolution, but not as products of design. Second and even more destructive to our friend's sermon: If he maintains that each level of complexity demands a more complex level above to have designed it, if he wants to believe that something as complex as a human cannot exist without having been created by an even more complex being, he will have to explain what more complex being than god created god. If complexity demands creation, then a complex god also must have been created. Street preachers are a dime a dozen, and for the most part that's more than I'd ever pay to listen to one.

How God came about? That ones not hard for me, but its not up for discussion here.

[Jack]

Well, there is plenty of sence in it.

Then provide an example, such as, when you plant a seed do you have to create the plant that results? No, it follows natural processes that result in a mature plant. I'm using my head here (thinking), not a belief system. Was dirt created along with rock, or is dirt simply weathered rock? Some things are created, others develop from natural processes.

How God came about? That ones not hard for me, but its not up for discussion here.

Why not? It a point raised in the video we were asked to watch.

[Wol]

Quote by: Isherwood There's no sense to the presumption that simply because humans can create something then everything that exists must have been created in the same fashion.

It makes no sense to believe that creation was not created by someone powerful and intelligent enough to create it. Even the wing of a butterfly has a design. Who put it there? Is this brilliance a product of ignorant nothingness.
There are many who have issues with organized religion, and often rightfully so; but many harbor the anger and resentment to the point where a conscious effort to see reality is resisted to the point of denial.
I am not asking anyone to submit to any preconceived set of dogmatic, organized, arbitrary, man made restrictions on lifestyle or moral standards. Neither am I trying to make any case for personal divine intervention, revelation, or inspiration. I am just trying to point out that it doesn't take much effort to see that there is an order and design in the universe that reflects intelligence.

[Jack]

I am not asking anyone to submit to any preconceived set of dogmatic, organized, arbitrary, man made restrictions on lifestyle or moral standards. Neither am I trying to make any case for personal divine intervention, revelation, or inspiration. I am just trying to point out that it doesn't take much effort to see that there is an order and design in the universe that reflects intelligence.

But you are trying to infer intelligent order and design where there is none. It's a matter of perception, not objective reality. "Order" and "design" are relative, subjective terms of perception. They are not absolutes. There is no absolute standard for design. What you believe to be a design someone else might rightfully, from their perspective, consider nothing more than random patterns.

We perceive design in already existing situations. That implies nothing about those things having been created based on a design.

Is this brilliance a product of ignorant nothingness.

Who said it was?

[Wol]

Quote by: Isherwood Same old nonsense trying to disguise itself as logic and rationality. First; Design is a human construct. There is no absolute standard for design that is consistent across the universe. Are planets all "designed" the same? Are galaxies? Is a spiral galaxy the standard model of design? Of course not. "Design" is in the eye of the beholder. Our bodies would have to be examples of rather poor design if they were indeed "designed" by a "designer". They are explainable as products of evolution, but not as products of design. Second and even more destructive to our friend's sermon: If he maintains that each level of complexity demands a more complex level above to have designed it, if he wants to believe that something as complex as a human cannot exist without having been created by an even more complex being, he will have to explain what more complex being than god created god. If complexity demands creation, then a complex god also must have been created. Street preachers are a dime a dozen, and for the most part that's more than I'd ever pay to listen to one.

This secular sermon deserves a response.
Perhaps God always was. Perhaps God is the Eternal Now. Theists don't have to match wits with or compete for knowledge of the Eternal to understand that we are witnessing a brilliant, ordered universe that transcends the mortal mind; but here it is.

[Jack]

Perhaps? That means, "the chance that something is likely to happen or be the case.". So god is now reduced to the result of chance? Let's just take the next step and admit, based on what's been presented to support the notion of gods that none exist.

we are witnessing a brilliant, ordered universe that transcends the mortal mind; but here it is.

You and those who agree with your view do, the rest of us see it differently. The cause of lightening once "transcended the mortal mind" but no longer. I would like to think that one day we'll know enough about the origins of life and the universe that superstitious belief will no longer be necessary.

[Wol]

Quote by: Isherwood But you are trying to infer intelligent order and design where there is none. It's a matter of perception, not objective reality. "Order" and "design" are relative, subjective terms of perception. They are not absolutes. There is no absolute standard for design. What you believe to be a design someone else might rightfully, from their perspective, consider nothing more than random patterns. We perceive design in already existing situations. That implies nothing about those things having been created based on a design. Who said it was?

Ish
If I take 2 identical jigsaw puzzle boxes of the shelf and assemble one completely while the other gets thrown out randomly, would you be able to tell me which one was put together so as to show the artist's design.?
Or would you tell me that you couldn't because " Order and design are relative, subjective terms of perception. They are not absolutes".
Someone who could look at the beautiful realistic picture presented and see nothing but random patterns might be justifiably advised to weave baskets rather than assemble jigsaw puzzles.
So that you don't send me another warning, let me add that I think you would see the picture.

[Jack]

Where do we see the precut pieces of the universe?

The analogy is irrelevant.

[Wol]

Quote by: Isherwood Where do we see the precut pieces of the universe? The analogy is irrelevant.

How about genetics/

[rez]

Quote by: Wol How about genetics/

Comparing the universe to a jigsaw puzzle is rather silly don't you think?

[Lord Leinad]

No, their is no god, never was, never will be. It is self-contradictory and illogical to believe in a god.

[Wol]

Quote by: Lord Leinad No, their is no god, never was, never will be. It is self-contradictory and illogical to believe in a god.

Do you know that for sure? If so can you tell me why you believe that.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Isherwood Where do we see the precut pieces of the universe? The analogy is irrelevant.

Your no diffrent from any thiests. If its not what you want to hear or care about then its irrelevent. Not a very broad thinker are you?

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Lord Leinad No, their is no god, never was, never will be. It is self-contradictory and illogical to believe in a god.

Prove that there is no God.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: rez Comparing the universe to a jigsaw puzzle is rather silly don't you think?

Well, if thats what is needed to do to help some people see and understand things then why not go back to pre-school analogies? Seems like it works for some people.

[rez]

Quote by: Kakumei Well, if thats what is needed to do to help some people see and understand things then why not go back to pre-school analogies? Seems like it works for some people.

An analogy only works when the two things compared to each other are comparable in the first place.

A universe does all sorts of complicated things. A jigsaw puzzle just does one thing. A jigsaw puzzle has a purpose and although the universe may have a purpose how do humans know what that purpose is or if that purpose has anything to do with humans?

The universe has existed for 13.5 billion years before humans ever came around to investigate it. And the universe will exist after the human race is gone. So, it is rather hard to determine how the universe has anything to do with the human race...

Of course we all know how to make a jigsaw puzzle, but we don't know how to make a universe.

So basically comparing something known to be created to something not known to be created is a rather dishonest trick.

Now of course if the ID idiots need grade-school comparisons then perhaps they should just go back to grade school and relearn their alphabet...

[rez]

Quote by: Kakumei Prove that there is no God.

Nice try, but the theists claimed there was a god first. So, it is their burden to provide evidence for that claim. Since you can't provide supporting evidence for that claim, then it supports my claim that there is no evidence for god.

Wow, its just soooo complicated...A B C D E F G H I J K......