No God?

[Sweet Katie]

Very simple...no one has yet presented either good arguments or compelling reasons to believe in any gods at all.

Response: This is an opinion. The belief in God provides comfort and happiness. Studies show that religious people are happier. The answer to the question how did we get here has been documented in the earliest known writing. Even your post, your questioning, indicates your own uncertainty. If you were absolutely sure, why argue the point? Would you argue that the moon exists with such fiery? Of course not, because you would find the argument idiotic. If you were absolutely positive of your stance you wouldn't argue it with such venom. It's the unanswerable question that drives you to question your answer.

You answered it yourself. We 'just happen' to exist (by 'we', I assume you mean humanity). The odds of us existing are precisely 1 in 2. Either we exist, or we do not exist. Since we obviously DO exist, the probability rises to 1:1, it's a metaphysical certitude.

How do you know that we exist? How do you know with absolute certainty that anything exists at all?

The Argument To Design is valid if (and only if) you can demonstrate that human beings are the intended result of the Universe. There is really no reason to think so.

I agree with this point; however, it is an opinion that I agree with and doesn't invalidate a person's faith.

If the universe was created, the Creator is a sick, sick puppy.

There is plenty on this planet to go around. It is those with the knowledge to dispurse it that are the sick, sick puppies.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Isherwood True, you can suppose anything. However, the workings natural processes have moved beyond supposition, we have evidence of that. The ideas of gods and other supernatural creators have never advanced beyond conjecture.

And, again, the ideas of Gods and other supernatural creature have advanced beyond conjecture based on NDE.

I'm not sure what happens when we die but I am sure that the person next to me knows no more.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Sweet Katie Very simple...no one has yet presented either good arguments or compelling reasons to believe in any gods at all. [b][i]Response: This is an opinion. The belief in God provides comfort and happiness. Studies show that religious people are happier.

(Just as many studies show that atheists are happier. I'll dig them up if you don't believe me.)

[Jack]

There are several quite natural explanations for NDEs. To use them as evidence of the supernatural is to prefer a complex answer that requires further evidence over a simpler, natural explanation that can be accounted for with known science.

This is an opinion. The belief in God provides comfort and happiness. Studies show that religious people are happier. The answer to the question how did we get here has been documented in the earliest known writing.

Lots of things provide feelings of comfort and happiness. That isn't valid evidence of anything beyond our human capacity for emotional responses to mental stimuli. Religious people may indeed be happier. What does have to do with the validity of the god concept? It does indicate that what we think affects our emotions and if we think there's a big daddy in the sky who will take care of us and answer all of our questions and loves us, I can see where that would produce more happiness than a more naturalistic view of reality. Blinders are meant to reduce fear, after all.

Even your post, your questioning, indicates your own uncertainty. If you were absolutely sure, why argue the point? Would you argue that the moon exists with such fiery? Of course not, because you would find the argument idiotic. If you were absolutely positive of your stance you wouldn't argue it with such venom. It's the unanswerable question that drives you to question your answer.

Wishful thinking and inaccurate interpretation. Questions asked of theists don't indicate doubt on the part of atheists. We're trying to get them to really think about the formulaic dogma they spout. Do you suspect Republicans who debate Democrats to be closet Democrats themselves? They debate because they disagree and see things differently than Democrats, just like theists and atheists. And what venom did you perceive? Are we going to rehash the "you're attacking me by questioning my faith" silliness again?

How do you know that we exist? How do you know with absolute certainty that anything exists at all?

That's an old philosophical dodge and has no bearing on the topic. Either we don't exist, in which case we aren't having this debate, or we do exist and we're right here, right now, and nothing has changed.

[Sweet Katie]

[quote=Lullaby Chainer;451084](Just as many studies show that atheists are happier. I'll dig them up if you don't believe me.)[/QUOTE
]

Please do! Absolutely!

Then, I'll post my link.

[Sweet Katie]

There are several quite natural explanations for NDEs. To use them as evidence of the supernatural is to prefer a complex answer that requires further evidence over a simpler, natural explanation that can be accounted for with known science.

Reponse: I'm not debating the existence that the supernatural exists or doesn't exists. I'm stating that we don't know.

Lots of things provide feelings of comfort and happiness. That isn't valid evidence of anything beyond our human capacity for emotional responses to mental stimuli. Religious people may indeed be happier. What does have to do with the validity of the god concept? It does indicate that what we think affects our emotions and if we think there's a big daddy in the sky who will take care of us and answer all of our questions and loves us, I can see where that would produce more happiness than a more naturalistic view of reality. Blinders are meant to reduce fear, after all.

The original statement was to rebute another statement that there is no reason to believe in God. Believing in God provides comfort, which is a reason. And I stand by it.

Wishful thinking and inaccurate interpretation. Questions asked of theists don't indicate doubt on the part of atheists. We're trying to get them to really think about the formulaic dogma they spout. Do you suspect Republicans who debate Democrats to be closet Democrats themselves? They debate because they disagree and see things differently than Democrats, just like theists and atheists. And what venom did you perceive? Are we going to rehash the "you're attacking me by questioning my faith" silliness again?

Democrats who debate Republicans do so because there is substance that can be used. In matters of religion and questions unanswerable, the substance is lacking. Unless one have the answers by some power that makes you he or she the God, which at this point does not exist. Do I know absolutely how we came to be? No, nor do I pretend to, nor should you, because you don't know. Or do you? And, if so, how do you?

That's an old philosophical dodge and has no bearing on the topic. Either we don't exist, in which case we aren't having this debate, or we do exist and we're right here, right now, and nothing has changed.

You're right. Either we exist of we don't. So, which is it? I don't know and neither do you.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer (Just as many studies show that atheists are happier. I'll dig them up if you don't believe me.)

Here's one for me!

what makes people happy?

What do you believe?
People with ‘deep religious faith’ or involved with a faith community tend to be happier than the average - this is especially true for youth.

Studies show they have higher self esteem, are less vulnerable to depression, substance abuse and delinquency, and are less likely to experience mental illnesses, divorce or to attempt suicide.

There may be a number of reasons for this.

Believers tend to be part of groups with strong relationships, and may be committed to more altruistic behaviour.
Generally, religious faith gives people peace, hope and a sense of purpose, all of which are very important for happiness.
Studies show that one of the greatest keys to long term happiness is going beyond ourselves and our pleasures to give ourselves in the service of something that we believe is more important than we are.

[Jack]

In matters of religion and questions unanswerable, the substance is lacking. Unless one have the answers by some power that makes you he or she the God, which at this point does not exist. Do I know absolutely how we came to be? No, nor do I pretend to, nor should you, because you don't know. Or do you? And, if so, how do you?

Correct, the substance is lacking, in fact non-existent. So without physical evidence we're left with deducing a conclusion based on logic, known science and common sense, all of which lead me to conclude that the idea of gods is nonsensical, illogical and not required to explain natural processes.

Either we exist of we don't. So, which is it? I don't know and neither do you.

Metaphysics and semantic word games aside, within the context of the common understanding of the concept of existence, I exist. I cannot say with as much certainty that you do. But there is more evidence that you exist than for a god existing.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Sweet Katie Please do! Absolutely! Then, I'll post my link.

Are Atheists More Depressed than Religious People?

[Sweet Katie]

Correct, the substance is lacking, in fact non-existent. So without physical evidence we're left with deducing a conclusion based on logic, known science and common sense, all of which lead me to conclude that the idea of gods is nonsensical, illogical and not required to explain natural processes.

Response: Yes, leads you! But you are attempting to oppress other ideas based on your logic and common sense. Throw out the science, because if there were unquestionable scientific proof, I wouldn't be typing right now.

Metaphysics and semantic word games aside, within the context of the common understanding of the concept of existence, I exist. I cannot say with as much certainty that you do. But there is more evidence that you exist than for a god existing.

Response: If you believe you exist, then you would by the same reasoning have to theorize that I exist. Otherwise neither of us could exist! Your argument is contradictory.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Are Atheists More Depressed than Religious People?

The article is almost four years old. Do you have anything a bit newer, like mine?

The article seems to be arguing that atheists aren't depressed, not that religious people aren't happy??????????? Also, their requirement to be part of their study is too strict to produce any other result than those pre-determined:

Our study, which was conducted on the basis of a comprehensive questionnaire, comprises a population of 174 persons of all ages and both sexes, who, in order to be considered for our evaluation, had to fulfill the following preconditions: all test persons must come from religious families and must also have received the religious education of the average citizen (as far as the imparting of religious doctrines and the performance of certain rituals are concerned); they must also have left the church later in their lives.5 Furthermore, they were categorized as determined atheists only if they were also subscribers to a German anticlerical periodical. With this latter criterion we wanted to ensure that the test persons had left church not “only” for financial reasons but also from inner conviction and, moreover, manifested more or less openly that they were opposed to religion. For the measurement of the average emotional condition of our test persons, we used Beck’s Depression Inventory (BDI), which is widely applied in psychology. We had chosen this standardized measuring method especially for the reason that it would enable us to compare the values obtained from our test population with those obtained from test groups of religious persons.

Also, the study doesn't take into consideration that people arrive at faith through struggle and find happiness in faith.

*******
Let me post some more links.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Are Atheists More Depressed than Religious People?

U of T Magazine -- University of Toronto

What do people say when they're asked what makes them happy? Family and friends tend to rank high, as do religion, career and health. But studies have yielded conflicting results, particularly about how much marriage and faith contribute to happiness. Although a 2000 study by Diener of more than 59,000 people in 42 countries concluded that there is a positive correlation between marriage and life satisfaction across cultures, more recent studies have challenged this idea. In 2003, Richard Lucas of Michigan State University published research showing that people report being happier only at the beginning of a marriage; after five years they tend to return to their previous level of happiness. As for religion, studies have demonstrated a link between religiosity and happiness, though researchers say the social-support and community aspects of attending religious services are probably more important than belief in a higher being.

I'm not debating what it is about religion that makes an individual happy. I'm stating that religion does factor into happiness.

[Sweet Katie]

Here's another:

What Makes Us Happy and Why?

I could post these links all day, but the Steelers-Browns game is about to begin.

GO STEELERS!

[Jack]

But you are attempting to oppress other ideas based on your logic and common sense.

What a nonsensical accusation. How am I attempting to "oppress" other ideas? By challenging them, by questioning them, by viewing them skeptically? Anyone's free to think what they will, including me.

If you believe you exist, then you would by the same reasoning have to theorize that I exist. Otherwise neither of us could exist! Your argument is contradictory.

I possess evidence for my existence that I don't possess to establish yours. You could be a computer program. I have no way of knowing that you exist as who you say you are. So I could easily exist even though you did not. Nothing contradictory there.

[Jack]

I'm stating that religion does factor into happiness.

So does chocolate.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Isherwood What a nonsensical accusation. How am I attempting to "oppress" other ideas? By challenging them, by questioning them, by viewing them skeptically? Anyone's free to think what they will, including me. I possess evidence for my existence that I don't possess to establish yours. You could be a computer program. I have no way of knowing that you exist as who you say you are. So I could easily exist even though you did not. Nothing contradictory there.

You are oppressing them by attempting to squash their faith with ridicule that stems from your own opinions, which I'm glad you finally have come to realize that your beliefs are only opinions. And you are absolutely right. You are free to not believe, and I have never stated that you don't have that right. Because you do. Just as the next person has the right to believe. And arguing it is a waste of time.

Now, I really must watch the Steelers-Browns game!

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Isherwood So does chocolate.

Pointless post. And, again, I refer to the reason I originally stated that religion provides comfort.

[Jack]

You are oppressing them by attempting to squash their faith with ridicule that stems from your own opinions

Again, nonsense. If their beliefs cannot weather skepticism and disbelief than they have personal issues. I don't cry foul every time a Christian feels the need to preach to me.

And arguing it is a waste of time.

I came to acknowledge my disbelief thanks to those who were willing to speak up about their lack of belief in gods. I'm thankful to them for that. Perhaps my debating the notion of gods can help someone else realize that gods aren't necessary for a productive and, yes, happy life. Just because I'm not out to change minds doesn't mean it won't happen.

I really must watch the Steelers-Browns game!

Honestly, debating here is far more interesting.

[Jack]

Pointless post.

It makes the point that happiness, an emotional state, can be produced by many things. It does not imply gods exist any more than it implies that chocolate is necessarily good for you. No one worships everything that makes them happy. Why the exception for gods? Obviously happiness isn't the sole criteria.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Isherwood It makes the point that happiness, an emotional state, can be produced by many things. It does not imply gods exist any more than it implies that chocolate is necessarily good for you. No one worships everything that makes them happy. Why the exception for gods? Obviously happiness isn't the sole criteria.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw