Does God have free will

[Nemiroff]

Before I begin I would like to say that this topic is about the judeo/Christian god. There are so many dieties it will be impossible to argue about them all at the same time. Also I am baseing this on the only 3 attributes every one can agree that this god has: all knowing, all powerful, all good.

Now, let's say god comes to a problem with several choices. He Is all knowing, meaning he knows all possible choices and actions he has. He is all powerful, meaning he has the power to carry out all the actions and choices possible. And finally, he is all good, which means he will only choose the best possible action, best being of course what he deems as best.

What I'm trying to get at is if god were to come to a choice he would pick the same choice everytime with no ability to do otherwise.
And if god has no free will, whose to say he is even a conscious entity, can anything be called conscious without the ability to choose?

[triad]

Your wonders have a flaw:


Assumption.



You are assuming too much - for one, you're assuming a God exists. For two, you are assuming the human-comprehendable god is the one that exists - our definition of God is our desperate attempt to explain our greatest questions.


But here is an answer:

If the all knowing, all powerful, all goog god is faced with a dilemma where both options will lead to a non-good *bad* result, then he must choose the lesser of two evils?..?

You can't say a God has free will if you can't construct a foundation on which to base the actuality of the situation where a God will need to make choice.


Translation: Who are you to say that even if a God had free choice that he would require to make any choices anyways?


The creation of the universe is done, maybe he is letting it self manage itself.. aka, evolution.


This is exactly why I am Atheist/agnostic/ just dont give a shit (but still like to debate it)...


There are too many questions that have impossible answers to make the human version of the [ why the ] existence of the universe and [ how ] it came to be.

[FenianKiwi]

Now, let's say god comes to a problem with several choices

.

This can't happen. I'll explain as we go.

He Is all knowing, meaning he knows all possible choices and actions he has.

It also means that he knows, in advance, which choice he will make, and what the consequence of that choice will be.

He is all powerful, meaning he has the power to carry out all the actions and choices possible.

This is a bit trickier. Apologetics are filled with theologians telling God what he can't do. : )

And finally, he is all good, which means he will only choose the best possible action, best being of course what he deems as best.

Divine Command Theory is going to get you into trouble, here. If what God deems as best IS best, then moral good is a fiat from God and can have no relation to human beings. If God acts i9n accord with what is already 'best', then morality exists outside God and he is not the source of moral authority. This is why apologists get headaches.

What I'm trying to get at is if god were to come to a choice he would pick the same choice everytime with no ability to do otherwise. And if god has no free will, whose to say he is even a conscious entity, can anything be called conscious without the ability to choose?

As defined (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) God cannot be a free moral agent, since he knows (and always has known) what he is going to do, what the consequences will be, and the chian of events that lead to the choice ( Thomas Aquinas tried to get round this by claiming that God chooses to forget that he is omniscient.sheesh ). God would be unable to act contrary to his nature, which is another way of saying God cannot act, full stop. But it gets worse...If God knows (and has always known) what choices I'm going to make, then these aren't really 'choices' at all. In a Judeo-Christian context, there are NO free moral agents, merely the illusion of free will.

[HelioPrime]

The 3 qualities listed become an issue based on our understanding.

God could be "all good", but how we view all good might not be the same as what god would. This is present in how what we would call evil enters the world, either through human actions or natural events.

Since the only sources about god don't define god as a creature or anything we can only guess. We don't know the abilities of something we can't define.

[Nemiroff]

I'm not assuming anything, I don't need to prove the existence of god because I'm not arguing the existence of god. If every discussion about anything relating to god needed to demonstrate his proof, nothing would ever be discussed.

Also you missed the entire point of the whole first 2 parts of my post. I must've just wasted my time by saying I'm only going by those 3 attributes. I know that god isn't comprehensible, but the judeo/Christian god is known for those 3. And there that many ways of interpreting all powerful.

You also said
Who are you to say that even if a God had free choice that he would require to make any choices anyways?

I'm not saying he can't not make a choice, and isn't choosing to not choose a choice? I'm saying he doesn't have free will so he can't make any choice at all.

[Nemiroff]

Kiwi, by limits to all powerful I'm guessing you meant like can he create a stone so heavy he couldn't lift it? If he could there would be something he couldn't lift and if he couldn't then there would be something he couldn't create. Either way there would be something he couldn't do. To explain this there are things that are physically impossible and logically impossible. God can do anything physically impossible, like stop time, make people fly, whatever. But many say god can't do anything logically impossible. Like god can't create a square circle, something with 3 sides and 4 sides at the same time.

[FenianKiwi]

Actually, I was thinking of the three that Thomas Aquinas said God couldn't do:

1. Create a being coveal with himself.
2. Destroy himself.
3. Create a triangle whose interior angles do not equal 180 degrees.

The last was accomplished by Lobachefsky, who wasn't even remotely a God. : )

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Nemiroff Before I begin I would like to say that this topic is about the judeo/Christian god. There are so many dieties it will be impossible to argue about them all at the same time. Also I am baseing this on the only 3 attributes every one can agree that this god has: all knowing, all powerful, all good. Now, let's say god comes to a problem with several choices. He Is all knowing, meaning he knows all possible choices and actions he has. He is all powerful, meaning he has the power to carry out all the actions and choices possible. And finally, he is all good, which means he will only choose the best possible action, best being of course what he deems as best. What I'm trying to get at is if god were to come to a choice he would pick the same choice everytime with no ability to do otherwise. And if god has no free will, whose to say he is even a conscious entity, can anything be called conscious without the ability to choose?

If your going to use logic on something we as mortal cannot understand then I shall use logic to explain.
Here is a statement from simple physics.
You cannont use a statement that explains opposites of infinite levels.
ie: A stone so big u cannot pick it up. Both are equal infinates, but of opposite 'levels', so you cannot measure them as opposites... man this a hard one to explain.
Its the same reason why at our current level as understanding as mortals the reason why Logic and Religion cannot be used to explain eachother.
Logic is Logic and Religion is Religion, the dont mix, we cannot use them together, yet anyway.

[Nemiroff]

I agree completely. In fact your stating that an all powerful being creating a stone he can't lift is physically impossible, which means we with our current tech cannot do.
I'm saying that it is logically impossible with means that noone will ever be able to it, except god depending on how much all powerful can do. I believe he can't do the logically impossible, and creating something an all powerful being can't lift is impossible, and not creating it would not limit his all powerfulness because that just doesn't exist, much like a square circle.
Also. I don't see the reason god can't destroy himself or create a being equal in power. None of those are logically impossible.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Nemiroff I agree completely. In fact your stating that an all powerful being creating a stone he can't lift is physically impossible, which means we with our current tech cannot do. I'm saying that it is logically impossible with means that noone will ever be able to it, except god depending on how much all powerful can do. I believe he can't do the logically impossible, and creating something an all powerful being can't lift is impossible, and not creating it would not limit his all powerfulness because that just doesn't exist, much like a square circle. Also. I don't see the reason god can't destroy himself or create a being equal in power. None of those are logically impossible.

To the more religious side of that, I believe that God was once a mortal being who had to undergo the same trails and tribluations that we do. The he has a Father himself and that he has a Wife as well. Its like a cycle that cannot be broken, like a circle, it has no beginning and no end. The details of all that however, I cannot provide, nor anyone else in Mortality, because I expect that our understand as mortals are diffrent to that of God.

[Nemiroff]

I'm not completely sure where your coming from its definetely not Judeo Christian. Seeing as its a uncommon or original set of beliefs you may want to go into more detail.
Also, a circle means the ends meet, the future and the past must come together somehow, you must have meant cycle in your description. And even a cycle needs a beginning.

Remember this post is only about the judeo Christian god or at least any god that falls within the all powerful all good all knowing god.
I went with those 3 requirements because those are the only things about any god that I know of, that are supposed facts and the only things we can possibly, truly argue about.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Nemiroff I'm not completely sure where your coming from its definetely not Judeo Christian. Seeing as its a uncommon or original set of beliefs you may want to go into more detail. Also, a circle means the ends meet, the future and the past must come together somehow, you must have meant cycle in your description. And even a cycle needs a beginning. Remember this post is only about the judeo Christian god or at least any god that falls within the all powerful all good all knowing god. I went with those 3 requirements because those are the only things about any god that I know of, that are supposed facts and the only things we can possibly, truly argue about.

Not saying anything from one side of an arguement or the other but does the Mormon God count as a judeo Christian God?
Had to express the question while I was at it.

[xyzer]

I'm not getting your point Nemiroff Since God is some function of a belief system(in fact many belief systems) how do you know it's a he? Why can't it be an "it"? After all it is an invisible means of support for many humans..an explanation for that which we cannot understand or even comprehend? Or really physically reveal? Its in the recesses of the human brain which as we know has a great capacity for invention and imagination. Thus God can take any form conceived by the human imagination..be responsible for whatever ones minds conceives? Perform any miracle that humans invent! You can even give it free will if it suits you?

[prejudged_Fire]

What I'm trying to get at is if god were to come to a choice he would pick the same choice everytime with no ability to do otherwise.

Wait... what? Where do you get that from? Why do you think that he would pick the same thing every time? And even if he does, that doesn't mean he can't pick the other options. When I'm presented with the option of Coke or Pepsi, I choose Coke every time. I can choose Pepsi if I wish, but I never do. Since I always make the same decision, does that mean I don't have free will? Maybe I misunderstood you.

[J. Askiloupos]

Alright, then... to claim the existence of a supreme being and then state that he lacks the power to make choices... To quote an ex-member: "WTF?"

[Kakumei]

Quote by: xyzer I'm not getting your point Nemiroff Since God is some function of a belief system(in fact many belief systems) how do you know it's a he? Why can't it be an "it"? After all it is an invisible means of support for many humans..an explanation for that which we cannot understand or even comprehend? Or really physically reveal? Its in the recesses of the human brain which as we know has a great capacity for invention and imagination. Thus God can take any form conceived by the human imagination..be responsible for whatever ones minds conceives? Perform any miracle that humans invent! You can even give it free will if it suits you?

Your way of thinking confuses me greatly. Lol. Okay, well that all depends of in you believe in the words of the Bible or not. Man was created in his image. Therefore God is male? Probably. Does that explain female? I could if you believe there is a Heavenly Mother that stands by Heavenly Father in eternal marriage. Just like Jesus will be married as it says in the book of Revelation.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire Wait... what? Where do you get that from? Why do you think that he would pick the same thing every time? And even if he does, that doesn't mean he can't pick the other options. When I'm presented with the option of Coke or Pepsi, I choose Coke every time. I can choose Pepsi if I wish, but I never do. Since I always make the same decision, does that mean I don't have free will? Maybe I misunderstood you.

Im sure he could pick any choice he wants to as well, but in the event that he makes Commandments and Laws and even possibly laws in 'Heaven' that he probably follows them himself.
This is the distinction of a Merciful, Just, and Beloved God and a Power-corrupt and tough Dictator.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos Alright, then... to claim the existence of a supreme being and then state that he lacks the power to make choices... To quote an ex-member: "WTF?"

From what we have been taught, he says he is Limitless and can do all things. We dont comprehend limitless as humans, we cannot even comprehend how large our Milky Way Galaxy is, let alone the rest of the universe. All in all we just dont know what he can or cannot do, but God says he can do anything, so why should we question that?

[Nemiroff]

Yes god can do anything but all powerful is not his only attribute, he's also all good so he will only pick the best choice, picking any other choice would not be in his nature, because that choice wouldn't be as good as one of his other choices.

If he came between two options he would have to pick the greater good, because he is all good (omni benevolent).

Also, I know god is not a she, he, or it, but most scholars, and people refer to him as he by default. And that wasn't even a part of my argument at all, try to stick to the topic.

[LOGAN]

It is true that God is all powerful, and good, and righteous. One thing you must keep in mind is the fact that we indeed are limited by our knowledge about God due to the facts that he only reveals what He wants us to know, yet He knows everything about mankind. Also, God cannot lie. Thus when he says something or makes a promise, it is "always" as He says. Example, God has said that He has no respect of person. Yet people expect to be treated superior because they have chosen to lead a faithful life. Such as making special prayer requests. He allows the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. In His eyes He loves the sinner as much as the saint. He just hates the action of sin not the sinner. If God did have respect of person, there would be no hope of salvation for none of us, for we all sin. Thus we have "free will", we indeed are the masters of our own fate. Just because God has said there are only a select few that will be saved does not "exclude" anyone from being saved. All one has to do is gain entrance into that select group that has been predestined to be saved. It is the group that is predestined not the individual, as all have the option to follow the rules submitted to gain entrance into that select group.

Just like at the beginning of the year in school. The teacher makes a predetermined statement that a certain amount of students will fail this class. At the end of the year there were the predetermined number that failed. Does that mean that certain ones were destined to fail, yes it does, the ones that failed to study. God has said that only a select few will be saved, it is up to us to be among that select group....or not. This is were free will comes in. If God selected the "individual" that would make him a liar, and God can not lie. He calls to all of us, its our choice if we accept or not. Logan