Does God have free will

[Jack]

Just because God has said there are only a select few that will be saved does not "exclude" anyone from being saved.

Few refers to the number of those selected, so it does exclude the majority of humanity. It's both a select group (you must qualify for admission) and a few selected (small number). Exclusivity is one of the hallmarks of Christianity. I remember when I was a believer thinking it odd that one hand we tried to tell everyone they could be saved while on the other hand, usually when speaking to those already saved, it was the "select few" that was emphasized.

[LOGAN]

God has left the membership open to anyone that cares to be included, just as you have the ability to make straight A's in school to make the "honor" roll. It is not God that "prohibits" anyone from becoming a member, it is a choice. God does not tell anyone that they are excluded. "Seek and Ye shall find". Logan

[loser]

People assert (or assume) many things about God but these in no way affect who He is or what He can do. I don't buy into those 3 'unassailable' attributes that you (or any others) have thrust upon God. I find it impossible to believe that God is all-knowing. If He was then He could not learn anything new. That would mean finite knowledge and, given enough time, others would eventually know as much as (catch up with) God. This would also mean that He would never make a mistake. Creating man has already proved that false. But in case you think I'm joking, I will refer you to His very own words:

(GW) Gen 6:5 The LORD saw how evil humans had become on the earth. All day long their deepest thoughts were nothing but evil.
Gen 6:6 The LORD was sorry that he had made humans on the earth, and he was heartbroken.
Gen 6:7 So he said, "I will wipe off the face of the earth these humans that I created. I will wipe out not only humans, but also domestic animals, crawling animals, and birds. I'm sorry that I made them."

Seems to me that God is learning after the fact and not before. Just like a scientist conducting an experiment doesn't KNOW the outcome beforehand (though he may predict the expected results), so God learns as He creates. Need more proof?

(GW) Gen 3:8 In the cool of the evening, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking around in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees in the garden.
Gen 3:9 The LORD God called to the man and asked him, "Where are you?"
Gen 3:10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden. I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid."
Gen 3:11 God asked, "Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat fruit from the tree I commanded you not to eat from?"

Of course, these could be rhetorical (or insincere) questions but there's no reason to believe that unless you need to mold God into an image that you are comfortable with (and when I say "you" I don't mean it in the personal sense).

All knowing? Nah, I don't think so. Let's just say that He's so far above us in intelligence that it looks like He knows everything!

All powerful? Same reasoning as above...He only appears to be all powerful. Nevertheless, His power is immense...I wouldn't deliberately cross Him (though I am, all in all, a pretty weak puppy, compared to Him, of course).

All good? Well, it's pretty much "all good" when you're God. Still, good is subjective. What's good for God ain't going to be so good for you and vice-versa.

If you want to argue points about God, let's start somewhere close to reality. If you believe in a make-believe God, then fantasy and speculative imagination is just fine. Logic works best when we are logical.

3. Create a triangle whose interior angles do not equal 180 degrees. The last was accomplished by Lobachefsky, who wasn't even remotely a God. : )

Isn't he responsible for the word "hyperbole"?

Its the same reason why at our current level as understanding as mortals the reason why Logic and Religion cannot be used to explain eachother. Logic is Logic and Religion is Religion, the dont mix, we cannot use them together, yet anyway.

I beg to differ. For me, religion could not exist WITHOUT logic! What I find doesn't mix is logic and most men's understanding.

Remember this post is only about the judeo Christian god or at least any god that falls within the all powerful all good all knowing god. I went with those 3 requirements because those are the only things about any god that I know of, that are supposed facts and the only things we can possibly, truly argue about.

That's why the argument collapses...'falsities' called "supposed facts".

A better debate would be something like "how is God's light different from the light of stars?".

Few refers to the number of those selected, so it does exclude the majority of humanity. It's both a select group (you must qualify for admission) and a few selected (small number). Exclusivity is one of the hallmarks of Christianity. I remember when I was a believer thinking it odd that one hand we tried to tell everyone they could be saved while on the other hand, usually when speaking to those already saved, it was the "select few" that was emphasized.

Exclusivity is a hallmark of life...period! When you go to bed at night, do you invite the neighborhood in with you? Do you leave the bathroom door open when you go number two? Do you like to masterbate in public?

Okay, well, maybe you are a pervert and do all of those things so, possibly, bad examples. How about this: Will you share your bank account (and other personal) information with all of us here at the board? You know, account number, social security number, telephone number, etc...you get the idea.

In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find ANYTHING that isn't EXCLUSIVE to some degree. EXCLUSIVITY, just like DISCRIMINATION, is another example of a GOOD attribute or word made bad. If it wasn't for EXCLUSIVITY and DISCRIMINATION, this world would suck BIG TIME!

Wake up and smell the coffee!

Not that! That's cow shit...discriminating noses would know the difference!

God has left the membership open to anyone that cares to be included,...

You tell 'em, LOGAN!

[Nemiroff]

First off, Logan, i know that we are limited in our understanding of God, but i'm not trying to understand the whole of that which is God, but those 3 statements are the only things we SUPPOSEDLY know of God, and the only things i can possibly go on. on the other hand, there are very few ways of interperting something like ALL powerful, I'm not trying to understand that power, but simply it states he can do anything, no way of reading or misconcieving that.

As for Loser.... obviously you are not talking about the judeo/christian god, i can have 100 arguments about God, and get 100 different answers from 100 different people who believe in 100 different gods, we can't talk about what we can't define or agree about, so if your gonna make this difficult, lets just go argue about something else cause no argument will be possible.

I have alot of problems of your explanation of God's all knowingness.
God cannot learn anything except things that are completely new. If he could learn then he didn't know everything and wasn't all knowing. The statement that he can't learn (beacuse he knows everything) only increases his power, rather then requireing him to learn which would set a limit to his knowledge.
Second, his knowledge of the future, can only exist if the future already exists. If it is all written and we're just following the path, then an all knowing god should know that. But, if the future is still just a blank page, then he can't possibly know it, just predict it, and if he truly gave us free will, and the divine plan is all balony, then he has no idea what's gonna happen....kind explains why we're here...God got bored, needed a funny sitcom, with plenty of comedy, tradegy, sex and PLENTY of violence.

[Jack]

God cannot learn anything except things that are completely new.

This wouldn't be consistent with a creator god, since everything that exists is created by that god. Anything "new" would also have to have been created by that god. He couldn't be surprised by some new thing because he would have had to create that thing. Unless, I suppose, he could create without awareness of creating. That's not a talent ascribed to the Judeo/Christian god.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Nemiroff Kiwi, by limits to all powerful I'm guessing you meant like can he create a stone so heavy he couldn't lift it? If he could there would be something he couldn't lift and if he couldn't then there would be something he couldn't create. Either way there would be something he couldn't do. To explain this there are things that are physically impossible and logically impossible. God can do anything physically impossible, like stop time, make people fly, whatever. But many say god can't do anything logically impossible. Like god can't create a square circle, something with 3 sides and 4 sides at the same time.

Well, if we say that God can do anything within the laws of nature or something, then when God says he can do anything, he may possibiy mean he can do anything within the laws.
Logically, in Physics you cannot compare 2 opposites in infinate mesures. Because this is a law of Physics, you cannot compare infinate strength with an infinate wieghing stone. As a good of an analogy it is, this simple law defeats the analogy with ease.

[ZNFYRH]

Been thinking long and hard about this topic and no one has yet offered the following question as a response:

What is free will?

The traditional opposite of free will is destiny, or fate.

It's the question of whether or not we control how our lives flow or whether we are moving along a track, much like a train.

Philosophically speaking, the buzz word that goes with destiny / fate is "predetermination."

Predetermination is the core of the issue of free will.

All predetermination means, philosophically, is that the consequences of your choices are already known. It's that simple.

Not that your path has been laid for you, but that someone already knows where it's going to go.

The JCI God's attributes include omniscience... which by definition means that he already knows where his path is going, regardless of what he chooses.

By that line of reasoning, while God can freely choose which path he takes, he always knows the consequences, and therefore does not have free will.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: ZNFYRH The JCI God's attributes include omniscience... which by definition means that he already knows where his path is going, regardless of what he chooses. By that line of reasoning, while God can freely choose which path he takes, he always knows the consequences, and therefore does not have free will.

Not necessarily, For starters you know that if you shoot and kill someone you will go to jail or even be killed yourself. In that sence, you can make the choice or exersize 'agency' and therefore you can avoid those consequences of those actions and thus even changing the future of you yourself and that person in which you killed.

I know alot of things I say are confusing sometimes, so if you dont get it, ask me about it.

[ZNFYRH]

Kakumei

Your example is valid, but fails.

In that example, there is no certainty. It relies on things you can't control. In the case of omniscience, you are certain.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Kakumei Your example is valid, but fails. In that example, there is no certainty. It relies on things you can't control. In the case of omniscience, you are certain.

It was an analogy. If you hold up an apple the drop it, it falls right? Its your choice wether you drop it or not.

You chose the choice, not the consequence. Thats all im really trying to state first before I go on, but ill finish tomorrow, i gotta go.

[Nemiroff]

Even so, gravity is a theory, god could technically turn it off and the apple won't fall. There is no certainty without omnicience other then that you yourself exist (all that we know are electric signals along our nerves from our senses to our brains. We might as well be brains in a test tube. Probably not, but can you really prove otherwise?)

And if the future is not yet written, which means god cannot possibly know it, only accurately predict it, and we truly do have free will free of destiny or fate, he may have somethings he can learn.

[loser]

The future doesn't exist except as a concept. Tell me, what's the difference between 'knowing' and 'accurately predicting'? I say they are the same (for all intents and purposes).

And, yes, I AM speaking about the Judeo/Christian God. I just don't jump to all of the same (faulty) conclusions as most others have.

I have alot of problems of your explanation of God's all knowingness

Explain.

If he could learn then he didn't know everything and wasn't all knowing.

Which is my assertion.

The statement that he can't learn (beacuse he knows everything) only increases his power, rather then requireing him to learn which would set a limit to his knowledge.

I asssume that this was YOUR statement (definitely NOT mine).

That wouldn't actually make Him more powerful. It would just delimit the world in which He resides (a closed system with nothing happening that hasn't happened before). This, of course, is an impossibility. There HAS to be a FIRST time of doing something (such as God creating the heavens and the earth and its inhabitants). God HAS to learn if He's a sentient being.

Second, his knowledge of the future, can only exist if the future already exists

Exactly!

If it is all written and we're just following the path, then an all knowing god should know that.

It's not.

But, if the future is still just a blank page, then he can't possibly know it, just predict it, and if he truly gave us free will,...

I agree with all of this...

and the divine plan is all balony, then he has no idea what's gonna happen....

...but none of this. When you have PERFECT UNDERSTANDING, you'll know EXACTLY what's going to happen because, contrary to popular misconception, life is NOT random...it's all ordered and structured. Just because the pattern is not obvious does not mean that it doesn't exist.

God IS learning (as we are) and God makes mistakes (as we do) BUT His ways (and means and abilities) are WAY ABOVE our own.

[Jack]

contrary to popular misconception, life is NOT random...it's all ordered and structured. Just because the pattern is not obvious does not mean that it doesn't exist.

It doesn't mean it does, either. Order, structure and pattern are all perceptions, opinions. You're welcome to yours, but without more evidence than that, my own perception is equally valid.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Nemiroff Even so, gravity is a theory, god could technically turn it off and the apple won't fall. There is no certainty without omnicience other then that you yourself exist (all that we know are electric signals along our nerves from our senses to our brains. We might as well be brains in a test tube. Probably not, but can you really prove otherwise?) And if the future is not yet written, which means god cannot possibly know it, only accurately predict it, and we truly do have free will free of destiny or fate, he may have somethings he can learn.

Bwahahahahhaha! Im about to LAUGH MYSELF TO DEATH!!! Okay, im not trying to insult you or anything, but Gravity is not a theory. Its a law. Ya know? Sir Issac Newtons Laws of Physics? Laws are what were once theory and solidly proven to be fact. It is therefor a law. Gravity is the powerful force that binds the Universe together, and without Gravity, we would be without structure and even resistance in the universe. There would be no such thing as a sphere, for starters.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Isherwood It doesn't mean it does, either. Order, structure and pattern are all perceptions, opinions. You're welcome to yours, but without more evidence than that, my own perception is equally valid.

I agree with you both to an extent. 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 is a pattern that is solid evidence. However, some people say that the planets follow a perfect circular pattern around the Sun, I disagree, it moves and meanders on the circular path here and there. Because its imperfect on its path, some could say its not a true pattern.

There is also undeniable patterns in life, without irregular cause of death, humans are small children, then teens, then adults, and finally old people and die. That is a pattern as well.

However I dont think that snowflakes, for example, have a pattern. No to snowflakes are the same to me, however, people disagree and say that they have the same pattern elsewhere, but since its random, I dont agree with the fact its a pattern. count 5 after 5 and you get 10. count 5 more and you get 15. That is a pattern to me.

Man, I cant tell if I agree or disagree... Im on both sides, is that okay with everyone? Lol.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: loser ...but none of this. When you have PERFECT UNDERSTANDING, you'll know EXACTLY what's going to happen because, contrary to popular misconception, life is NOT random...it's all ordered and structured. Just because the pattern is not obvious does not mean that it doesn't exist. God IS learning (as we are) and God makes mistakes (as we do) BUT His ways (and means and abilities) are WAY ABOVE our own.

Partly I agree and partly I dont. When he 'sees the future' and has 'a perfect understanding' I think its more on the lines that no matter what happens, he knows the outcome of things. This suggests that no matter the choices people make or what path a person chooses, God will know the outcome. Just as if we punch somebody in the face, we will know the outcome, that person will take damage.

On the flip of the same coin, it seems more like Gods perfect understanding of all things along side his ability to know the outcome of all things, is what gives him the power to see the future when applied correctly. God may seem supernatural to us, but im sure there is logic and understanding that is as simple even though we may not know it.

[ZNFYRH]

Kakumei

Nothing is worse than being obnoxiously disrespectful when you are dead wrong.

Laws, as the word relates to science, are not infallible. They are still theories, but theories that have undergone consistent and rigorous testing.

You wrote:

Laws are what were once theory and solidly proven to be fact.

Special Relativity alters many scientific laws. Should I laugh like that at you because of what you said?

Besides...

All laws are theories, but not all theories are laws.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Kakumei Nothing is worse than being obnoxiously disrespectful when you are dead wrong. Laws, as the word relates to science, are not infallible. They are still theories, but theories that have undergone consistent and rigorous testing. You wrote: Special Relativity alters many scientific laws. Should I laugh like that at you because of what you said? Besides... All laws are theories, but not all theories are laws.

Laws are on a solid basis. If a drunk man is driving and hits another car and kils the passangers they arent fully there metally. Yet they get away with it as 'involentary man slaugter' even though they just murdered somebody.

Sure, Laws are diffrent else where but what im trying to prove is that Gravity is there, its no theory, if it was a theory, id probably be floating around at this computer right now, and not sitting in the desk infront of it.

Sorry for laughing, im use to debating people on youtube and I laugh at them alot cause they are stupid, some people ive debated dont even think that gravity is real... hope you at least accept the apology.

[Nemiroff]

Um but gravity is a theory not a law. We know what it does but we have no idea how it works. I'm not gonna argue this point I learned it a long time ago, look it up in any textbook or physics book.

[Nemiroff]

Loser, if your talking about the judeo/Christian god you are talking about an all powerful, all good and all knowing god. Other than him being an only god (which I'm sure many religions use only 1 god) what else would set him apart if not for those 3 attributes. If you disagree with those attributes, in effect you don't believe in the j/c god, but a different similar god.

I can accurately predict that the guy with anger management issues will start a fight with the guy winking at his girlfriend, but if I knew what was gonna happen I would know that this one time he will choose to swallow his pride and walk away. Free will is what differentiates knowing and accurately predicting. The difference between the two is huge, one is perfect, the other can be fallible.

That was my statement, and it was also where I explained why I disagree with your version of god's all knowingness