Hell

[Lullaby Chainer]

So many Christians here have been trying to avoid defending the Bible's insanity by avoiding it.

This thread is about Hell and whether the Bible says it's real, whether it's eternal, and what it's like.

HADES

NASB Concord. # 86- adhV, ou hadˆs; perh. from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and 7054 (1491a) (3708);Hades, the abode of departed spirits :-- Hades(10).

The Greek word "Hades" is translated into English as "Hades" 10 times in the New American Standard (NASB) and that is the ONLY way it is translated.

* Matt 11:23 (NASB) "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
* Matt 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
* Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
* Luke 16:22 "Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.'
* Acts 2:27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
* Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
* Reve 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
* Reve 6:8 And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
* Reve 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.
* 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

From this little study of the Greek word, Hades, we learn this:

1. Hades is down (Luke 10:15)
2. Those in Hades are being tormented (Luke 16:23) in flames (vs 24.)
3. All dead do not go to Hades. Some go to "Abraham's Bosom."

4. (Luke 16:22, 25) Once you are dead, there is nothing you can do about about your whereabouts. (Luke 16:26)
5. The soul (the conscious part of us) is what goes to Hades. (Acts 2:27.)
6. Jesus (who was dead but is now alive forever) has the keys of Hades. (Rev 1:18.)
7. The dead who are in Hades, will one day come out to be judged. (Rev 20:13)
8. Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14.)

LAKE OF FIRE

So what is this "lake of fire"? It is spoken of 5 times. Read those verses below.
NASB Concord. # 3041- limnh, hV limnˆ; from leib“ (to pour); a lake :-- lake(11).
NASB Concord. # 4442 - pur, oV pur; a prim. word; fire :-- burning(2), fiery(2), fire(69).

* Reve 19:20 (NASB) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
* Reve 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
* Reve 20:14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
* Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

From these we learn:

1. The "lake of fire" burns with brimstone (sulfur.) (Rev 19:20)
2. It is a place of torment "day and night forever"(Rev 20:10)
3. Going there is "the second death" (Rev 20:14)
4. Anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life goes there!!!! (Rev 20:15)
5. Those who commit bad sins go there, but then so do the cowardly and unbelieving! (Rev 21:8)

eternal...

Another passage sheds a little more light on the subject.

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

1. The fire is "eternal." (Mt 25:41)
2. It was not prepared for man. It was prepared for the devil and his angels (demons.) (Mt 25:41)
3. The punishment is "eternal" (vs 46)

unquenchable...

Need more proof?

Mark 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as [followers] of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 "And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

1. The fire never stops, it is "unquenchable". (Mk 9:43,46,48)
2. There are also worms (maggots) which are involved in the torment, and they never stop either! (Mk 9:44,46,48) Yukkkk!!!

maggots...

Does the Old Testament describe this? You bet it does!!!

* Isa 11 'Your pomp [and] the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out [as your bed] beneath you, And worms are your covering.'
* Isa 66:22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the Lord, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the Lord. 24 "Then they shall go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind."

[Lullaby Chainer]

HELL

And what do you think about "hell" (Gehenna)? You know that the term came from a garbage dump where refuse was constantly burning. I think the idea conveyed is the constant burning (and maybe the stench). Read each time that Greek word is used in the scriptures and decide for yourself.

NASB Concord. # 1067 geenna, hV geenna; of Heb. origin 01516 and 02011 ; Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly :-- hell(12).

The only 12 uses of gehenna are these:

* Matt 5:22 (NASB) "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell.
* Matt 5:29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.
* Matt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
* Matt 18:8 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell.
* Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
* Matt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?
* Mark 9:43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
* Mark 9:45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell...47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
* Luke 12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
* James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the [very] world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of [our] life, and is set on fire by hell.
* Hell is fiery (Mt 5:22)
* The fire is "eternal" and it is "hell". It is so bad that it would be better to cut off a part of your body to avoid going there. (Mt 5:29-30; 18:8-9; Mk 9:43-48) Does that sound like "the grave" to you?
* Hell is for the soul as well as the body. (Mt 10:28)
* Some people are sentenced to hell (Mt 23:33)
* They are then cast into hell. (Mk 9:45,47)
* Those who only kill the body do not cast anyone into hell; they merely cast someone into their grave. Only the Lord has the authority to cast a person into hell. (Luke 12:4)

ABYSS

There is another place called the abyss. It is also called the bottomless pit. It seems to be a location inside the earth, or something, and may possibly be the same as hades, but it is definitely different from the lake of fire. If you are interested, look up these references to the abyss: Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7; Rev 9:1,11;11:7;17:8;20:1

You will find out...

1. Demons don't want to go there. (Lk 8:31)
2. Presumably, no one can go there, or perhaps no one can go there and get back out on his own accord. (Rom 10:7)
3. It is down, and Jesus was there. (Rom 10:7)
4. It is in the earth, and is locked with a key which an angel has. (Rev 9:1)
5. It has smoke (and where there's smoke...) (Rev 9:2)
6. It has a King (Rev 9:11) and locust-like demons (see vs 3-10)
7. A beast comes out of it to kill the two witnesses. (Rev 11:7)
8. Then he (he is identified as Antichrist here) goes to destruction (Rev 17:8)
9. Satan is chained up here for 1000 years (Rev 20:1-3)

Hell - Does the Bible teach that there is a place of Eternal Torment?

[Lullaby Chainer]

More on Hell being eternal.

everlasting fire — Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment — Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains — Jude 1:6
eternal damnation — Mark 3:29
eternal judgment — Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire — Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire — Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched — Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable — Luke 3:17
mist of darkness is reserved for ever — 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever — Jude 1:13

[Lullaby Chainer]

More on Hell being a place of fire.

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

[Lullaby Chainer]

How serious Jesus took Hell.

Jesus Christ took hell very serious. . .

Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

[Lullaby Chainer]

What Jesus says about Hell.

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!
"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

[Lullaby Chainer]

Christians will probably find some way to discard some of the Bible's scriptures.. but good luck ignoring all of them.

[Athena]

I wonder if Hebrews held a concept of hell? The only old testament reference to Hell I see is, Hebrews, and that is about being judged, not about hell. The was a radical change in the Hebrew religion because the New Testament was strongly influenced by Prussian mysticism and the Greeks. I hope the Christian who argued Christians are well educated in our past, and therefore, informed enough to judge truth, well contribute his knowledge to this discussion.

The Greeks held an understanding of Hades as a place of the dead. If you wanted to speak with the dead, you could go to the opening in the ground that leads to Hades (also ruled by the god Hades). You must bring a lamb with you, because when you get to the opening of Hades, you dig a hole and slit the lambs throat, allowing the blood to flow into the hole. Now the dead can come drink of the blood, and then they can talk with you. This is directly tied to Jesus being the sacrifical lamb. The lambs blood having magical powers between the living and dead.

No one should enter Hades without the help of the gods, because it is so easy to be lost in Hades. All this is psychologically analogous to what is so. When someone we relied on dies, we tend to turn to our memory of this person when having to make a difficult decisions, wishing we could ask this person's advise. As we think of how this person would advise us, it is almost like speaking with the person.

Furthermore, to be lost in Hades is to suffer depression or more severe neurois or psychois. Yet we must all go to Hades from time to time to get a sinse of life's means. Those who never do, are frivilous. The gods are concepts that we can used to resolve our problems. Actually this is advanced psychology. These people studied human nature and were experts in expressing their thoughts in dramas and poems. By telling such stories they educated people.

[J. Askiloupos]

The Hebrew edition of Hell was not a place of judgement, but rather a place called Sheol where the dead simply... waited... for final judgement at the Great White Throne of Yahwe.

[HelioPrime]

I always thought most chrisitans believe in hell?

Hell being a place were you are seperated from god's love. Are you trying to say chrisitans don't believe in hell?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime Are you trying to say chrisitans don't believe in hell?

From the freaking OP

"So many Christians here have been trying to avoid defending the Bible's insanity by avoiding it."

Or they ignore the bad parts like you do here..

Quote by: HelioPrime Hell being a place were you are seperated from god's love.

[Jack]

Actually LC, believing that hell is a place where you are separated from god's love is common dogma in many factions of the Christian faith. That's the best definition they can offer. To examine the concept further might involve having to explain to themselves why god created hell in the first place.

[HelioPrime]

I guess I can't see what I'm missing sir.

Christians believe in hell or they shouldn't call themselves by the term.

So I ask again what christians here are denying the existance of hell, and why does hell count as "insanity?"

[Athena]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos The Hebrew edition of Hell was not a place of judgement, but rather a place called Sheol where the dead simply... waited... for final judgement at the Great White Throne of Yahwe.

Ah, is this the Catholic purgatory? I hope you can answer my question without being attacked.

Folks, some of us need to drop the defensiveness and discuss the topic with detachment. I asked about the Hebrew concept of hill and J. Askiloupos was kind enough to answer. If we want to understand the bible, then should we not have an understanding of the differences between Hebrew and Christian belief? I think it is obvious Christian concepts include Persian, Egyptian, and Greek concepts. Are we going to analize things or not? How many ancient people agreed there was an after life and that humans are judged and then go to hell or the good after life?

How about the Egyptian trinity of the soul? The body dies. The personality is judged by Isis and if she determines the person is good, the person passes into the good after life. The essence of the soul returns to the source.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Isherwood Actually LC, believing that hell is a place where you are separated from god's love is common dogma in many factions of the Christian faith. That's the best definition they can offer. To examine the concept further might involve having to explain to themselves why god created hell in the first place.

I'd imagine so..

Quote by: HelioPrime I guess I can't see what I'm missing sir. Christians believe in hell or they shouldn't call themselves by the term. So I ask again what christians here are denying the existance of hell, and why does hell count as "insanity?"

loser doesn't believe the bible teaches an "eternal suffering in hell".

Chimera doesn't believe a good person goes to Hell if he does not believe in God.

These all contradict their Bible.

I can go on if I must.

So stop questioning the reason for this thread.

The Hell described by the Bible is insanity because it teaches us that finite sins are deserving of infinite torture.

[Athena]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'd imagine so.. loser doesn't believe the bible teaches an "eternal suffering in hell". Chimera doesn't believe a good person goes to Hell if he does not believe in God. These all contradict their Bible. I can go on if I must. So stop questioning the reason for this thread. The Hell described by the Bible is insanity because it teaches us that finite sins are deserving of infinite torture.

Here I empathize with the frustration of arguing with Christians. It is concerning that their faith goes with a lack of knowledge of what the bible says, and then, too often they say things that are very offensive, such as those who can not accept what the bible says, don't have morals. What an awful thing to say. So not only is their faith based on a lack of information of what the bible says, but they also promote a false belief that some of us don't have good morals. This is a double edged sword that cuts deeply. :(

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer The Hell described by the Bible is insanity because it teaches us that finite sins are deserving of infinite torture.

Well thats christian belief. Those same sins of course can be forgiven, they only are damning if the person lives without seeking forgivness.

Your taking all these bits out of context. Sins can be forgiven in most christian religions aside from the predetermination ones.


I'm wondering why you would quote bible quotes about hell. Since you didn't list chimera or provide posts where they say they deny hell I guess my mind reading skills are lacking. Please elaborate before you vent.

Don't assume everyone knows exactly what your getting at in a thread without giving the background. Even Zhavric would open new threads with a brief summary of a point from a former thread.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime Well thats christian belief. Those same sins of course can be forgiven, they only are damning if the person lives without seeking forgivness.

Actually, that's not always the case.

* LUKE 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
* . MARK 3:29, "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."
* MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".

Also, it's impossible to "seek forgiveness" from something you do not believe exists. Many people actively seek God for years or a lifetime and never find him. Many people are enslaved by the tyrannies of rationality and therefor never conclude GAWD. You over simplify what can be done to be damned by one's sins.

Quote by: HelioPrime So again I'm asking where you base the idea that hell is insanity.

Obviously my reasons stand as you haven't provided anything sensible.

Besides, even if what you've said was the truth or not over simplified, not seeking forgiveness is STILL a finite mistake punished infinitely.

Quote by: HelioPrime Do you choose that a reason for not being a christian?

Mhm.

Quote by: HelioPrime Are you trying to say that eternal punishment itself is insane and hence any religion that included it is insane?

Yes.

Quote by: HelioPrime I'm wondering why you would quote bible quotes about hell. Since you didn't list chimera or provide posts where they say they deny hell I guess my mind reading skills are lacking.

I don't see why you can't just believe me, nor why it matters, but sure..

loser doesn't believe the bible teaches an "eternal suffering in hell".

Chimera doesn't believe a good person goes to Hell if he does not believe in God.

Quote by: HelioPrime Don't assume everyone knows exactly what your getting at in a thread without giving the background. Even Zhavric would open new threads with a brief summary of a point from a former thread.

Don't assume I give a shit. I clearly stated my reasons for making this thread. It's your own problem, which I've catered to, that makes you need proof that I'm not making up reasons to start a thread.

[HelioPrime]

The proper way would have been to list the people specifically, and even provide the links.

You didn't, you just said (in general so many christians) so whats that 100, 1000, a million?

You didn't give any point other than: hell = stupid idea because I said so
Any explanation only came after someone spoke and you rudly just come back and attack them.

Grow up before you continue this little crusade of yours. Provide your point and background BEFORE you come back and flame people. Did the bus thing really scar you for life that much?



And yes, some chrisitans ignore hell, the unitarian universalists for example.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime The proper way would have been to list the people specifically, and even provide the links. You didn't, you just said (in general so many christians) so whats that 100, 1000, a million? You didn't give any point other than: hell = stupid idea because I said so Any explanation only came after someone spoke and you rudly just come back and attack them.

Doesn't matter. That's not the point of the thread.

THIS.. is the point of the thread. (From OP)-"This thread is about Hell and whether the Bible says it's real, whether it's eternal, and what it's like."

My reasons for making a thread are irrelevant. I provided a vague reason regardless.

We shouldn't even be arguing about this. Like I've said before, stop questioning my reasons for making a thread.

Also, I don't care if I was rude to you. You're effing annoying and you keep derailing my threads. I have no patience for that.

Quote by: HelioPrime Grow up before you continue this little crusade of yours. Provide your point and background BEFORE you come back and flame people. Did the bus thing really scar you for life that much?

Oh please, ask anyone here. I've been on my Christian-hating-baby-raping-evil-little crusade long before the bus incident. If you remember, I made that thread simply because I wanted to pose a question. It's your own immaturity that lets you think it "harmed" me.

So this is your last warning. Not that I can do anything to you, but because I hope you have some respect for that the fact that this is my thread: DROP IT. I don't have to elaborate WHY I create a thread when I plainly state in the OP.. "This thread is about Hell and whether the Bible says it's real, whether it's eternal, and what it's like." And I certainly don't care if I'm rude to topic derailers like yourself.

Quote by: HelioPrime And yes, some chrisitans ignore hell, the unitarian universalists for example.

Yet you have a bizarre obsession with why I created this thread.