human fallacy

[Athena]

Once again, I plead of a philosophy and science forum, separate from philosophy and religion, so that everyone understands the discussions are scientific in nature, not religious. That said the subject of this thread is human nature, and all the problems we manifest when we hold a false belief about creature and human nature.

The false belief is that God created humans as we know humans today, beautiful, thinking creatures, very much like angels. Satan is a fallen angel right? so even when we are bad, we are these angels. This is a false understanding of our nature, and what makes us like humans as we expect them to be, and from there, we make a mess of everything.

Wolf Trust - Wolf Children Possibly the most broadly documented wolf children are the two Indian girls, Kamala and Amala. Villagers caught the girls in 1920 in remote countryside west of Calcutta. They had been spotted previously with adult wolves and were found in a wolf den with two wolf cubs. The den was dug up, the mother wolf killed and the girls taken away. J A L Singh, an Anglican missionary, who ran an orphanage, took them in and gave them their names. Kamala was thought to be five or six years of age and Amala around two years old. They were dishevelled, ate raw meat in the manner of dogs, and howled but could not talk. The were indifferent to temperature - a characteristic of people leading rugged lives - had sharp hearing, good vision in the dark and a strange gleaming look in their eyes. Kamala and Amala stood and walked on all fours. Kamala was so adept as a quadruped that she could outstrip on four legs anyone on two legs and climb and jump easily. But like many other children of her feral background she never seriously mastered walking upright and resorted to hands and knees when needing to. Amala died the year after she was found. Kamala survived into her teens and managed to learn only some three dozen words.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Athena Once again, I plead of a philosophy and science forum, separate from philosophy and religion, so that everyone understands the discussions are scientific in nature, not religious. That said the subject of this thread is human nature, and all the problems we manifest when we hold a false belief about creature and human nature. The false belief is that God created humans as we know humans today, beautiful, thinking creatures, very much like angels. Satan is a fallen angel right? so even when we are bad, we are these angels. This is a false understanding of our nature, and what makes us like humans as we expect them to be, and from there, we make a mess of everything.

I really liked your article when you first posted it, but I already agreed with it so I didn't say anything. Its amazing how thin the difference is between us and animals, and how mutable the human brain is.

I also think that religion and philosophy should be two separate topics. Philosophical debates do frequently reference religious ideas, but so do many of the science and political debates.

[Athena]

:) I think I love you. What you said about us having mutable brains is so helpful to this discussion. I think we should bring all other discussions to a screaming halt until we determine, what is human nature.

There are several google hits for "ferral children" that explain the effect of different organical brain problems, or possibly the effect of deafness without proper treatment.

For us to be the humans as we expect humans to be, requires not only several brain and sensory functions, but also training for being human. Creationist are holding a false belief about our human nature and from there are making many bad decisions. We are not as we expect human to be, unless we are trained to act like humans from the earliest age, and if for some reason this does not happen early in life, the untrained human, may loose the abilibity to learn how to function as we expect humans to function.

This fact of life, lead to misjudging black people as subhumans. The cultures of Africa did not prepare them to to function like Europeans. Same with native Americans. We are born with fairly equal potential, but if we can develop that potential or not, depends on our early years. After the age of 8, it becomes much harder to train a human child to behave as expected.

This fact of life has many moral implications, and a justice system based on a creationist point of view, is not just, because that is a false concept of our nature. The story of Adam and Eve is a myth. As we were created, we were as animals. Animals that could learn how to be as we expect humans to human to be.

We are not evil because Eve ate the wrong fruit, therefore we are born into this condition and must be saved by a supernatural power. We are not evil because a supernatural being of evil makes us evil. We are no more evil or sinful than any other animal. Our human nature, good or bad, is learned. Our natural condition is that of wild animals, running on all fours with no language, and eating raw whatever we can get into our mouths and chew. By studying ancient human stools, we know humans ate birds, feathers and all, just as an animal would. We know humans took a time to learn how to use tools and control fires. Our development to the humans we are today was a hard, long process. WE WERE NOT CREATED IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN, FULLY DEVELOPED HUMAN BEINGS CAPABLE OF ADVANCING CIVICLIZATIONS.

[Dadoo]

Rupert Sheldrake offers a theory entitled morphic resonance; it is worth looking into, and offers an explanation of the psycho/physio makeup of species and their habits, in esoteric and scientific verbage.
To the end of separation. Unification is the only way!
-Unitists and divisionalists are at odds arguing whether God is the whole, or just the sum of it's parts!?!
-Dadoo

[Suburbanite]

I don't think philosophy is scientific in nature any more than it is religious. I say, lets keep one forum and call it the retarded metaphysician (Science and Religion) and another forum called Genius Ametaphysicians (Ironism and Richard Rorty).

[Winter wind]

I don't know if this is a valid idea or not.

I think that humans may or may not be the pinnacle of the march of life. We are definitely the pinnacle in today's world (doesn't make us saints). Christian do believe that human kind is the final result, that we are the limit. I say I don't know (won't know in my life time unless global warming screws us all.)

Humans did not pop into existence one sunny day, that I agree with. But the possibility remains that Humans are the final result (however unlikely.)

[Athena]

Quote by: Dadoo Rupert Sheldrake offers a theory entitled morphic resonance; it is worth looking into, and offers an explanation of the psycho/physio makeup of species and their habits, in esoteric and scientific verbage. To the end of separation. Unification is the only way! -Unitists and divisionalists are at odds arguing whether God is the whole, or just the sum of it's parts!?! -Dadoo

What wonderful insight you have offered! As I see what you said, the argument is largely the words we use. I seriously need to follow through on the information you offered.

I am a unitists I belief? My spiritual feeling is very united with earth and all that is on it. I have not sense of evil in this connection with nature. I have never seen the terms you used, used on this subject before and I hope you give us more of this point of view.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Dadoo Rupert Sheldrake offers a theory entitled morphic resonance; it is worth looking into, and offers an explanation of the psycho/physio makeup of species and their habits, in esoteric and scientific verbage. To the end of separation. Unification is the only way! -Unitists and divisionalists are at odds arguing whether God is the whole, or just the sum of it's parts!?! -Dadoo

My simple 2 cents are that "God is one in all and all in one." You can well deduce from this statement, whether God is the whole, or just the sum of it's parts!?!

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Winter wind I don't know if this is a valid idea or not. I think that humans may or may not be the pinnacle of the march of life. We are definitely the pinnacle in today's world (doesn't make us saints). Christian do believe that human kind is the final result, that we are the limit. I say I don't know (won't know in my life time unless global warming screws us all.) Humans did not pop into existence one sunny day, that I agree with. But the possibility remains that Humans are the final result (however unlikely.)

Humans are equipped with better brain and mind than other animals but,initial basic data feeding till age of 12 years are of utmost importance. In the absence of that basic data, the human would remain as good as other animals whose company it would have. The best example is wolves girls

[Winter wind]

Humans are equipped with better brain and mind than other animals but,initial basic data feeding till age of 12 years are of utmost importance. In the absence of that basic data, the human would remain as good as other animals whose company it would have. The best example is wolves girls

I'm not sure whether you're arguing for me or against me. But if you're arguing against me right now...

Girl's living with wolves = wolf like intellect
Dog living with humans = Dog like intellect

If your arguing for me, sorry for arguing your point again and being and ass...

[Athena]

Quote by: Winter wind I'm not sure whether you're arguing for me or against me. But if you're arguing against me right now... Girl's living with wolves = wolf like intellect Dog living with humans = Dog like intellect If your arguing for me, sorry for arguing your point again and being and ass...

You missed the link to feral children. Wolf Trust - Wolf Children

A child being raised by a wolve is completely different from a child living with humans and having a dog. The one's raised by wolves tend to die soon after being captured, just as some wild animals die in captivity. They may run on all fours, instead of walk, and may not learn to speak.

Animals, including humans, have age windows for learning different things. If an animal or human does not learn something, at the right age, they can not learn later. Of course, humans are the most flexible, having immature brains for the longest time. What Kuldeep said is exactly right. We learn how to be human, and are like animals without this learning.

I so look forward to the day when we throw away our bibles and turn to nature and science to understanding the human condition. Our judgments and decisions will be greatly improved.

[Winter wind]

A child being raised by a wolve is completely different from a child living with humans and having a dog. The one's raised by wolves tend to die soon after being captured, just as some wild animals die in captivity. They may run on all fours, instead of walk, and may not learn to speak.

I stand corrected. I didn't look at the link. However, you still haven't proven that:
Dog living with humans = human like intellect

Once you do, I'll shut up.

I so look forward to the day when we throw away our bibles and turn to nature and science to understanding the human condition. Our judgments and decisions will be greatly improved.

I can't believe I'm making this argument, but what about morals? I know religion doesn't have a copyright on values, but what's so bad about religion? Jesus, Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, Buddha, Confusions, Mother Teresa, hell, most great people of action were religious. (while it's true so were a lot of evil people, the above people based their greatness in their religion.)

[Athena]

Quote by: Winter wind I stand corrected. I didn't look at the link. However, you still haven't proven that: Dog living with humans = human like intellect Once you do, I'll shut up. I can't believe I'm making this argument, but what about morals? I know religion doesn't have a copyright on values, but what's so bad about religion? Jesus, Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, Buddha, Confusions, Mother Teresa, hell, most great people of action were religious. (while it's true so were a lot of evil people, the above people based their greatness in their religion.)

A child raised by humans will learn how to be human from them. The child may learn barbaric values, and turn out to be as those we put in prison, or a child may learn to be very civilized and become a lawyer fighting for justice. How we turn out is not as simple as being a human and different from other animals. One could argue, we are retarded apes, because it takes us much longer to mature. Our personalities don't solidify until age 30, and then we continue to go through life changing phases.

What is so bad about religion is the fallacy of what it means to be human. To be human is not equal to being mortal angels. We are not cut from the same Adam and Eve mold, but are are as diverse as the nature can make anything. You brought up an excellent point! Another thing that makes us different from animals is our great diviersity. No other creature can be as diverse as humans. It is the sum total of all our differences, that makes us to different from animals.

Each individual is uniquely different. Groups of humans, such as tribes and nations are different. Even as individuals, we do not remain the same throughout our lives, but are constantly changing. The religious story of creation is misleading. We were not made from a mold, equal in all ways, and then from there either sinful or angelic.

[Athena]

Dadoo's contributions about Rupert Sheldrake offers a theory entitled morphic resonance, must be added to what Kuldeep posted in another thread. Here is a little about Rupert Sheldrake offers a theory entitled morphic resonance. I am so excited I can hardly contain myself, because the Stoics argued morals have form and force. It is our human given gift to identify them, and then upon naming the law, living by the law. This ability separating us from the rest of the animals.

Rupert Sheldrake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In more recent work, Sheldrake has developed his ideas further and also conducted experiments (documented in subsequent books) on phenomena like telepathy which he believes could be explained by morphic fields, since he believes that thoughts as mental forms (and more complex mental forms as ideas, skills, languages etc. having thoughts as their subforms), similarly like organic forms also have their morphic field(s). For example, Sheldrake began working in the 1990s on experiments to see whether animals had telepathic powers. Sheldrake has argued that certain animals (particularly dogs) can sense when their owners are coming home unexpectedly - a phenomenon widely reported by pet owners. Sheldrake has also researched the homing ability of dogs and pigeons. In recent years he has also researched human telepathy; in these experiments, a subject must guess which of four people is about to telephone or send an email. According to the published results of these experiments, instead of being right 25% of the time (as expected by chance), the subject guesses the person correctly about 45% of the time.[3]

[Athena]

I just have to add Kuldeep's understanding to consciousness to Dadoo's contribution of morphic fields, and the Stoics concept of morals having form.

Quote by : Kuldeep Why we are what we are???...Due to Parental unique love!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All animals and birds, including humans are having following fundamental properties: 1. All are conscious of that all are existing as Individuals (Individual consciousness). 2. All have memory. 3. All do forget. 4. All can recollect past and plan for future. 5. All think and react to the present situation keeping in view of past experiences and future needs. With all these fundamental properties, individual living creature exists as an individual. But then degree of intelligence, power of reception, storage and recollection varies a lot in same specie and much much more from specie to specie. Nature has given an additional properties of love and affection for each specie's off-springs...I refer to parental love !!! This love is so peculiar that develops strongest bond the two and does allow to break away. Off-spring is not in a position to move by itself on birth and start living with other specie picking up different manner of living than its own specie. Therfore, all offspring learns what its parents feed into the mind as basic data. Well story of wolf girls confirm what I am saying about ther importance of the basic data requirement fed to the brain/mind in the early span of one's life!!! Humans having better power of thinking and intelligence could develop best of all and have become what they are, as they are as on now. It is out of that inteligent thinking, even different religions grew out. Other human properties like selfishness, greed, prejiduce nature, fame, sense superiority over others etc have turned humans as bad lot as well...So balance of Good and Bad do exist as part of human mind's properties !!

[Objectivist]

Quote by: Athena For us to be the humans as we expect humans to be, requires not only several brain and sensory functions, but also training for being human.

Humans require conceptual knowledge.

Animals are perceptual. The brain of an animal takes the information gathered from its senses and integrates it into a percept. It uses the percept, "This tree harms me." "That animal hurts me." "This tastes good." to determine its actions. (NOTE: The animal does not consciously think "this tree harms me" it's a pain/pleasure mechanism that is automatic and subconscious).

Humans are conceptual:

"Man's sense organs function automatically; man's brain integrates his sense data into percepts automatically; but the process of integrating percepts into concepts—the process of abstraction and of conceptformation—is not automatic.

The process of concept-formation does not consist merely of grasping a few simple abstractions, such as "chair," "table," "hot," "cold," and of learning to speak. It consists of a method of using one's consciousness, best designated by the term "conceptualizing." It is not a passive state of registering random impressions. It is an actively sustained process of identifying one's impressions in conceptual terms, of integrating every event and every observation into a conceptual context, of grasping relationships, differences, similarities in one's perceptual material and of abstracting them into new concepts, of drawing inferences, of making deductions, of reaching conclusions, of asking new questions and discovering new answers and expanding one's knowledge into an ever-growing sum. The faculty that directs this process, the faculty that works by means of concepts, is: reason. The process is thinking." Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand

A human that lives with animals never learns to use his conceptual power of his brain, yet he is still capable of it.

[LOGAN]

I being somewhat conservative in my cognation to reason and not one to let my imagination...ie emotions, lead my "physical" proverbial tail unto any unsecured slippery slope of ideology that states my internal compress is pointing a few degrees off from "true north" just cannot bring myself to accept the popular secular humanist perception of reality formula which states as does all reasoning that is based on "theory".........NOTHING + NOBODY = EVERYTHING

And until such time as "proof actual" is presented into my cognation to reason and train of thought, I will simply accept my place in the universe as the current "evidence" suggests that I should, as being inferior and at the will of the "creator". Due to the fact that I am conservative and live in a world in which I let my physical surroundings dictate my life choices, and accept things the way they are instead of hoping to change things that are out of my control into the way that I 'wish' they would be, I will let the commonly accepted laws of nature and physical science hold true to the formula that states such.........the product from which a whole is subtracted cannot be physically superior to that from which it originated, in other words, I simply accept my place and kneel to the greatness of my creator, whether it be divinity or nature I know that I am not capable of exceeding the greatness of that which gestated my being.

And as I said, until such time as someone can actually prove the "non-existence" of God my creator, I shall kneel to his greatness and accept what I am told by he in his word. We as humans, are unique due to the fact that we are the only creatures in the world that was created with both a "soul" and an eternal "SPIRIT" that was crafted in the image of our creator, and if we but follow his simple rules of nature and allow ourselves to be lead by he that created us into 'goodness' we possess the ability to become the sons of God and have eternal life. Logan

[Jack]

We as humans, are unique due to the fact that we are the only creatures in the world that was created with both a "soul" and an eternal "SPIRIT" that was crafted in the image of our creator

Could you locate those two items within the human anatomy for me? There's no evidence to support the idea these things exist.

[LOGAN]

Sure that would be easy to locate, if one knows where to look. I choose to look in the direction of "science" and the laws of "physics", both of which have lead me to have cognation of reason to confirm that the law of energy conservation is indeed true. This particular law states that the total amount of energy in any closed system....i.e. like, perhaps that of a human body and its quickening or ability to live by the means of electro chemical energy storage and use in the brain and nervous system that gives cognation and ambulatory function to that of inert matter which gestated from the mineral deposits that is found to be common in our plane of existence.......REMAINS CONSTANT and can not be recreated nor destroyed. In short, the physical law of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another. The only physical condition that is in contradiction to or capable of breaching this common law of physics would be that of special relativity.....E=Mc2. Which would have to work on a "sub-atomic" or nuclear level, in which more energy is created than was found in the dormant natural state of all atoms....i.e. whole....special relativity states that due to a cascading event that happens when an atomic event occurs or an atom is split it creates additional energy by the rapid expansion of sub-atomic particles.

If we do not possess this "energy" that can not be created nor destroyed, what force of nature gives life to the inert compounds that make up our physical bodies? Of course this "energy" does exist due to the fact that we are "alive"....then one must ask the simple question, just what happens to this energy that can not be created nor destroyed, only changed when the "switch" that we call human life ceases to function? Find the location where this energy is located and you will have the location of the human "SPIRIT" or "SOUL". Logan

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Winter wind I'm not sure whether you're arguing for me or against me. But if you're arguing against me right now... If your arguing for me, sorry for arguing your point again and being and ass...

Yes, I definitely argue for you. I pointed out human mind is a special one as we see from modern development man has made due to that only. But, initial basic data feeding is essential, which in most of the cases birth giving mother, father, relatives or anybody who looks after the infant give for first 10-15 years of age!!!

Girl's living with wolves = wolf like intellect Dog living with humans = Dog like intellect

You did agree the first case is correct since, girls did not get that basic human societal data so turned wolf like.

Coming to second case of Dog living with humans = Dog like intellect, I would say:

i) Intellect difference, could be a factor because of which it remained Dog like inspite of living with humans.

ii) But then, there is also difference in training being given to dog as compared to the human infant. I can not imagine any woman being so affectionate to puppy as she would be to her own new born child. I am also not aware whether anybody has taken that much trouble for bringing up a puppy as is taken to bring up his or her own infant.

However, I have an Octagerian aunt who is issuless and brought up few puppies. Of course not from infancy, but I have seen her caring them as her own children. I have seen them understanding everything what she talks to them. Their gestures and sounds are very much different than a stray dogs. But still, I won't call this training same as we do it for human infant to make her walk and talk as it does develop.

Again, I have seen few pet Parrots talking few sentences like humans due to their master's training.