There simply is no God

[Athena]

Quote by Winter wind: (3) you didn't support this with a whole lot of evidence, but i think I see where this is coming from. This is the whole bunch of laws from the L book (please don't ask me to spell it) in the old testament. You are right about the bizarreness and ineffectiveness of the old testament judicial system. The laws are crap and that needs to be addressed, however we are judging this in the 21st century where life is very different then several millenniums ago

I would like to take just this piece of the bible to another thread for more detailed analysis. Can we clarify what those laws and who is authority?
This would be a great debate, because even Jesus had some objection to Jewish laws.

It would be helpful to determine which laws are given to us by God and which are man made, according to the bible. Winter wind and Lullaby Chainer will either one of you start a more focused debate on the laws?

[Athena]

Loser, I what to know your reaction to the well laid out evidence that the people is full of statements about condemning people to a firey hell?

[Winter wind]

Err, no offense meant triad, but have you read...well any of the thread?
Your comments are valid, but they don't seem to respond to anything said.

Back to other things.

Good try. If love, forgiveness, helping the poor and needy were only created through Christianity, then you would have a point. However, you and I know those things are not. And since they are not there would be no reason to believe in Christianity because you can obtain those things without Christianity.

Yes, you can obtain these things without Christianity, but try looking at it from the other angle. Doctors without borders did not create the concept of giving medical care to all, but people still help out and believe in their cause. Christianity did not create these values, but it did embody those (in theory at least). Why not believe?

However I'm not sure I answered that in the way you wanted. So If you want to clarify your position, i will be able to answer more satisfactorily.

Also, if you could address my first post, which talks specifically about the concepts of the thread, I would greatly appreciate that.

[Winter wind]

Geez, i start a post and leave to finish it an hour later and 5 or 6 posts past. This moves fast.

It would be helpful to determine which laws are given to us by God and which are man made, according to the bible. Winter wind and Lullaby Chainer will either one of you start a more focused debate on the laws?

I'd actually rather not start getting into specific old testaments laws, mostly because I'd end up agreeing with Lullaby. To me, nit-picks are less important then the overarching idea of forgiveness and charity in Christianity.

[Century 25]

Read what Ann Druyan.. the widow of Carl Sagan, wrote: Ann Druyan Talks About Science, Religion, Wonder, Awe . . . and Carl Sagan(Skeptical Inquirer Nov 2003)

Carl has several great books that will enlighten the thinking of those open-minded enough to read.

[Winter wind]

Carl was a genus. I think his writings on religion were particularly inspired. Only one thing ever hit me as illogical about his statements (or at least how the statement has been used.)

"The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be"

this quote has been used to argue against God, but the Cosmos includes God. Maybe even is God. I think that his idea of God being in the laws of physics is valid and smart (I don't agree, but think the logic is impeccable and still is awe inspiring.)

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Why I lack belief in God.

Your opinions don't validate the title of your thread.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Isherwood Yup, sure did, for years. And you know what happened after all that? I found out he didn't "reveal" himself to me because there was no one to be revealed. It was all in my mind. I had convinced myself that god was real, that he was guiding me and took a personal interest in my life. Once I got over that notion, my life didn't change dramatically. Nothing was all that different except that now I could appreciate reality without the extra hubris. I took responsibility for my own actions and quit blaming the devil or god. My life became far richer and more valuable.

Can you provide the meaning for :
- "reveal himself to me"
- "my life became far richer and more valuable"
???

[Jack]

Quote by: Rainbow Can you provide the meaning for : - "reveal himself to me" - "my life became far richer and more valuable" ???

"Reveal himself" is one of those nebulous terms Christians use so often and never define. For example;

So the key to knowing God's will is to be obedient to the guidance of the Holy Spirit of truth. If you are willing to trust and obey God and live a holy life, God will reveal Himself to you and direct your steps as a way of life.

Step 6 - Obedience

I used the term figuring Christians would find it familiar. I'm actually pleased you questioned it. It's a nonsensical concept without any precise definition.

My life became richer because I quit trying to perceive the hand of god in everything and learned to appreciate nature and other people for what they are. I stopped attempting to shoehorn reality into the constraints of religious belief. Religion is very limiting and biased. It colors your perception of reality and blinds you to the natural beauty of life. My life became more valuable when I gave up the silly notion that I'd get more life after this one. When I finally grasped the fact that death is it (as far as I can determine without having to rely on blind faith), I began to value every moment so much more than I had before. I realized that every second that passes will never come again, every missed opportunity to help another or share my feelings for them is gone forever, every beautiful moment has to be savored and appreciated as much as I'm capable of.

[Winter wind]

Hah, my first real post is on this touchy subject.

I'm officially calling all of you out to respond to this post (the most relevant of all my posts) It is located on the previous page.

That means you Isherwood, Rainbow, Athena, and good old Lullaby Chainer. I challenge you all.

Ya, there was a little too much sugar in my tea today.

[Century 25]

A quick thought.. debating a deity is like debating the image within a mirror.. it seems substantive.. but..

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Isherwood My life became more valuable when I gave up the silly notion that I'd get more life after this one. When I finally grasped the fact that death is it (as far as I can determine without having to rely on blind faith), I began to value every moment so much more than I had before. I realized that every second that passes will never come again, every missed opportunity to help another or share my feelings for them is gone forever, every beautiful moment has to be savored and appreciated as much as I'm capable of.

Then, for some reason, the thought of an afterlife in some way detracts from living life as you describe?? You'd actually make the choice to live life differently if you believed there was some form of afterlife?

If there is indeed nothing more past death, then what difference does it make how you live this life?

[Jack]

Quote by: Zeebadee Then, for some reason, the thought of an afterlife in some way detracts from living life as you describe?? You'd actually make the choice to live life differently if you believed there was some form of afterlife? If there is indeed nothing more past death, then what difference does it make how you live this life?

In my opinion, Christianity (and religion in general) cheapens life in two major ways. It teaches that we are above all the rest of nature, that we are a special creation unique and apart. So it encourages us to not worry much about this planet or any other life form on it. It shouldn't concern us. We should be occupied with discerning god's wishes and living to be pleasing to him. We are above nature.

What folly. It makes a skeptic wonder why Christians take any interest in social service, ecology or politics. That's all "of this world", and Christians are "not of this world" (John 15:19 NAS...If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.) To think that you are not a part of this planet cheats you out of an appreciation for the wonderful interaction of nature. It blinds you to the concepts of an ecosystem and our place in it. It allows you to disregard our impact on the planet and on other living things. It's an attitude of arrogance and ignorance.

And Christianity wants us to believe that this life is but a foreshadow of our eternal life to come. To understand there's nothing beyond death makes every moment you have between now and then immensely precious. It makes every second count. Do you value your money more if you have a million pennies or if you only have ten? Will you be a better steward of your wealth if you're promised that when that stash runs out more will be provided, or if those ten pennies are all you get and there aren't any promises of more if you spend them unwisely? I contend a realistic understanding of death adds immeasurable value to your life, while promises of life after death cheapen the value of this one.

[shawmutt]

Quote by: Isherwood In my opinion, Christianity (and religion in general) cheapens life in two major ways. It teaches that we are above all the rest of nature, that we are a special creation unique and apart. So it encourages us to not worry much about this planet or any other life form on it. It shouldn't concern us. We should be occupied with discerning god's wishes and living to be pleasing to him. We are above nature.

As far as Christianity goes, God expects humans to be his stewards with nature.

Quote by: the Bible Genesis 1:26. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Lev. 25:23-24. The land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land. Ezekiel 34:2-4. Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not the shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you did not take care of the flock! You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. Ezekiel 34:10. 0 shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. This is what the sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. Ezekiel 34:17-18. As for you, my flock... Is it not enough for you to feed on good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? Isaiah 24:4-6. The earth dries up and withers, the world languished and withers, the exalted of the earth languish. The earth lies under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Jer. 2:7. I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But you came and defiled my land and you made my inheritance detestable. Luke 16:2,10,13. And he called him and said to him, "What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward. He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous in much. You cannot serve both God and mammon. James 5:5. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. Mark 4:19. ...and the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word and it becomes unfruitful. Revelation 11:18. The nations were angry and your wrath has come. The time has come for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great - and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

As far as "religion in general" what about the Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, Confucians, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, Unitarian Universalists, Jains, Amish, Mennonites, and Bahá'ís? Perhaps if you said "Abrahamic religion in general" you'd be more accurate.

[Winter wind]

In my opinion, Christianity (and religion in general) cheapens life in two major ways. It teaches that we are above all the rest of nature, that we are a special creation unique and apart. So it encourages us to not worry much about this planet or any other life form on it. It shouldn't concern us. We should be occupied with discerning god's wishes and living to be pleasing to him. We are above nature.

I back shawmutt on this one. With great power comes great responsibility. Plus even you can't deny humans are the smartest, and the most developed things on the planet. But this only makes us even more responsible for the globe.

What folly. It makes a skeptic wonder why Christians take any interest in social service, ecology or politics.

Christians in social services because of emphasis on charity.
Christians in ecology because we are the most responsible for the condition of the planet.
Christians in politics cause the religious right is taking over the world, one coalition at a time.

Oh don't forget that I'm still calling all of you out to respond to my first post.
Please at least tell me if your going to *coughchickencough* opt out of my challenge.

[Jack]

Plus even you can't deny humans are the smartest, and the most developed things on the planet.

Sure I can, by simply pointing out that there's no absolute standard for "smartest and most developed". In addition, that judgment is being made by humans. Of course we think we're best. But when it comes to getting along peacefully and productively with just our own species and living in cooperation with nature, we could learn a lot from other species. We don't because of our egotism and superiority.

[Winter wind]

Careful, your arguing with a neurobiologist in training. The human brain is the most developed of all. With a complex emotion and thinking pattern. An unprecedented memory retention and skilled at complex anaylizes and amazing learners. Also we are, (as far as we know), the only species that is self conscious in the sense that we have to curiosity to try figure out our purpose.

Also about if others could do a good job. Do you think that if wolves were in our position they would give a damn about over hunting deer?
Maybe we could do better at learning, but overall, things could be worse (we have a faction that realizes our faults and wishes to change them)

[Jack]

The human brain is the most developed of all. With a complex emotion and thinking pattern.

But is most complex the same as most developed? Is complexity the sole standard of development? If complexity produces brains unable to guide their hosts in living in harmony with their fellows and environment is complexity a positive attribute? How do we experimentally determine emotional and cognitive abilities of other animals? Without the ability to communicate with them, how can we be sure we know what the output of their brains produces?

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Winter wind I back shawmutt on this one. With great power comes great responsibility. Plus even you can't deny humans are the smartest, and the most developed things on the planet. But this only makes us even more responsible for the globe.

But if humans are nothing more than smart, highly developed animals, what logic assumes humans have any more responsibility for the globe than any other creature has responsibility? And from whence does a moral sense for such responsibility come?

Christians in social services because of emphasis on charity. Christians in ecology because we are the most responsible for the condition of the planet. Christians in politics cause the religious right is taking over the world, one coalition at a time.

How should we interpret this? It is good to have an emphasis on charity or not? It is good to have concern for charity or not? And if it is good to have concern for charity and the ecology, how does concern for politics translate to "the religious right taking over the world one coalition at a time?"

Oh don't forget that I'm still calling all of you out to respond to my first post. Please at least tell me if your going to *coughchickencough* opt out of my challenge

Please repost your challenge.

[Winter wind]

how can we be sure we know what the output of their brains produces?

via elementary tests and this amazing thing called an MRI. (CAT scan too)

Development is based off of evolutionary advantage. So far, our brains have pushed us to a position of power over the rest of the ecosystem (show by how we have adversely affected it.)
I'm not trying to sound arrogant, after all, we did screw up kinda bad once we gained power.