There simply is no God

[Maryjane]

Atheists, being amoral, have no qualms in lying to avoid prison and have no conscience (a feeling of guilt) that compels them to confess to their crime.

Roman Catholic sex abuse cases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, we atheist have the corner on immorality. Too bad we don't have a church to cover up for us as well. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

Because of the Bible's complete truth (even it's heroes are shown warts and all), you condemn it.

We don't condemn it (condemn it to where? There is no atheist hell to condemn things to), we find it frequently nonsensical, occasionally poetic and completely of human origin. Once in a while it does say something true, but that's hardly unique. Here's a "truth" some find inconvenient:
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (emphasis added)
It's just a book, not divine, not inspired, not factual in all things.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: shawmutt I agree. It's intellectually lazy and a non sequitur besides--It's as if you were saying "The only God is the God of the Christian Bible. Since I can disprove this God, there is no God."

Glad you pointed it out. Too many times around here the atheists get a pass on exactly the kinds of behaviors they so strongly revile in Christians.

[another day]

Quote by: loser Atheists, being amoral, have no qualms in lying to avoid prison and have no conscience (a feeling of guilt) that compels them to confess to their crime. The statistics confirm this..

We've been over this in thorough detail before...

Atheists have just as much morality as any other sane person. We don't require threats of eternal damnation to be bound to moral codes. We (like all other moral humans, regardless of what book you think you learned it from) derive our morals from empathy for other people's pain. If you need it written in a book to tell you that torturing or killing another person, or stealing his belongings, or raping a girl, is wrong, then you are a moron or a psychopath, plain and simple. It's as easy as saying "How would I feel if someone did that to me?" That's not religious enlightenment, it's logic.

As for "the statistics confirm this"...obviously untrue, try not lying since you just said it's those evil atheists who do this. Off the top of my head, i'd say about 90% of prison inmates consider themselves religious. And I'd say whatever that statistic, it's probably directly parallel to the religious population outside of jail.

Religious belief, nor a lack of it, has any bearing on a person's morality. That compass is within.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: loser Eternal suffering in hell is NOT what the Bible teaches...that is a LIE and DECEPTION.

Hell - Does the Bible teach that there is a place of Eternal Torment?
HADES

NASB Concord. # 86- adhV, ou hadˆs; perh. from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and 7054 (1491a) (3708);Hades, the abode of departed spirits :-- Hades(10).

The Greek word "Hades" is translated into English as "Hades" 10 times in the New American Standard (NASB) and that is the ONLY way it is translated.

* Matt 11:23 (NASB) "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
* Matt 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
* Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
* Luke 16:22 "Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.'
* Acts 2:27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
* Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
* Reve 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
* Reve 6:8 And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
* Reve 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.
* 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

From this little study of the Greek word, Hades, we learn this:

1. Hades is down (Luke 10:15)
2. Those in Hades are being tormented (Luke 16:23) in flames (vs 24.)
3. All dead do not go to Hades. Some go to "Abraham's Bosom."

4. (Luke 16:22, 25) Once you are dead, there is nothing you can do about about your whereabouts. (Luke 16:26)
5. The soul (the conscious part of us) is what goes to Hades. (Acts 2:27.)
6. Jesus (who was dead but is now alive forever) has the keys of Hades. (Rev 1:18.)
7. The dead who are in Hades, will one day come out to be judged. (Rev 20:13)
8. Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14.)

LAKE OF FIRE

So what is this "lake of fire"? It is spoken of 5 times. Read those verses below.
NASB Concord. # 3041- limnh, hV limnˆ; from leib“ (to pour); a lake :-- lake(11).
NASB Concord. # 4442 - pur, oV pur; a prim. word; fire :-- burning(2), fiery(2), fire(69).

* Reve 19:20 (NASB) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
* Reve 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
* Reve 20:14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
* Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

From these we learn:

1. The "lake of fire" burns with brimstone (sulfur.) (Rev 19:20)
2. It is a place of torment "day and night forever"(Rev 20:10)
3. Going there is "the second death" (Rev 20:14)
4. Anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life goes there!!!! (Rev 20:15)
5. Those who commit bad sins go there, but then so do the cowardly and unbelieving! (Rev 21:8)

eternal...

Another passage sheds a little more light on the subject.

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

1. The fire is "eternal." (Mt 25:41)
2. It was not prepared for man. It was prepared for the devil and his angels (demons.) (Mt 25:41)
3. The punishment is "eternal" (vs 46)

unquenchable...

Need more proof?

Mark 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as [followers] of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 "And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

1. The fire never stops, it is "unquenchable". (Mk 9:43,46,48)
2. There are also worms (maggots) which are involved in the torment, and they never stop either! (Mk 9:44,46,48) Yukkkk!!!

maggots...

Does the Old Testament describe this? You bet it does!!!

* Isa 11 'Your pomp [and] the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out [as your bed] beneath you, And worms are your covering.'
* Isa 66:22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the Lord, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the Lord. 24 "Then they shall go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind."

HELL

And what do you think about "hell" (Gehenna)? You know that the term came from a garbage dump where refuse was constantly burning. I think the idea conveyed is the constant burning (and maybe the stench). Read each time that Greek word is used in the scriptures and decide for yourself.

NASB Concord. # 1067 geenna, hV geenna; of Heb. origin 01516 and 02011 ; Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly :-- hell(12).

[Lullaby Chainer]

The only 12 uses of gehenna are these:

* Matt 5:22 (NASB) "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell.
* Matt 5:29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.
* Matt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
* Matt 18:8 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell.
* Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
* Matt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?
* Mark 9:43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
* Mark 9:45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell...47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
* Luke 12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
* James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the [very] world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of [our] life, and is set on fire by hell.
* Hell is fiery (Mt 5:22)
* The fire is "eternal" and it is "hell". It is so bad that it would be better to cut off a part of your body to avoid going there. (Mt 5:29-30; 18:8-9; Mk 9:43-48) Does that sound like "the grave" to you?
* Hell is for the soul as well as the body. (Mt 10:28)
* Some people are sentenced to hell (Mt 23:33)
* They are then cast into hell. (Mk 9:45,47)
* Those who only kill the body do not cast anyone into hell; they merely cast someone into their grave. Only the Lord has the authority to cast a person into hell. (Luke 12:4)

ABYSS

There is another place called the abyss. It is also called the bottomless pit. It seems to be a location inside the earth, or something, and may possibly be the same as hades, but it is definitely different from the lake of fire. If you are interested, look up these references to the abyss: Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7; Rev 9:1,11;11:7;17:8;20:1

You will find out...

1. Demons don't want to go there. (Lk 8:31)
2. Presumably, no one can go there, or perhaps no one can go there and get back out on his own accord. (Rom 10:7)
3. It is down, and Jesus was there. (Rom 10:7)
4. It is in the earth, and is locked with a key which an angel has. (Rev 9:1)
5. It has smoke (and where there's smoke...) (Rev 9:2)
6. It has a King (Rev 9:11) and locust-like demons (see vs 3-10)
7. A beast comes out of it to kill the two witnesses. (Rev 11:7)
8. Then he (he is identified as Antichrist here) goes to destruction (Rev 17:8)
9. Satan is chained up here for 1000 years (Rev 20:1-3)

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: loser The Bible records the acts of human beings who, in turn, are confused and contradicting. Because of the Bible's complete truth (even it's heroes are shown warts and all), you condemn it. The Bible is not cruel any more than U.S. history books are cruel. PEOPLE are cruel, even those NOT recorded in the pages of the Bible. Think, please.

No, loser, I speak of what GOD SAYS IN THE BIBLE.

[Winter wind]

Hah, my first real post is on this touchy subject.

We're supposed to address the list of stuff from the beginning, right?

1) That's a point well taken. Not to mention the fact that the biblical description of Jesus' birth had everyone wearing rather skimpy clothing for mid-winter. Yet I hope you don't think so poorly of Christians that you think the Nativity and magic tricks type miracles are the point of Christianity. That stuff was more to help people convert during the conversion of the roman empire.

2) Faulty logic. The same could be said about any number of historical people. Buddha is one of them. Plus, it wasn't until the Apostles spread the word did Jesus get wider fame. Also, you try writing a Biography without a laptop and no internet for research quicker then few decades time.

3) you didn't support this with a whole lot of evidence, but i think I see where this is coming from. This is the whole bunch of laws from the L book (please don't ask me to spell it) in the old testament. You are right about the bizarreness and ineffectiveness of the old testament judicial system. The laws are crap and that needs to be addressed, however we are judging this in the 21st century where life is very different then several millenniums ago.
You use a lot of fancy words for your second section of argument 3 so please bare with my stupidity.
I think your saying that forgiveness as an escape from responsibility is wrong. I agree. I also think that the Bible agrees with you. The true meaning of Christian forgiveness is redemption over retribution. Because Jesus saved us doesn't give Christians a "get out of jail free" card. If a sin is committed, the idea is that we ask for forgiveness in the spirit of change. That the offender wants to do what he can to change the wrong that was committed

4) I don't quite get what you're saying, but I think your saying non-believers go to hell, right? Well I don't agree with that. See I'm more of a new testament Christian. The "Love thy neighbor" "Love your enemy" kind of guy. Yes the Bible says people who don't believe go to hell. But i say screw that. This sort of brings up how you lump all Christians into one category and label them cruel and stupid.

5) Your taking a one-sided view of this. The following is a list of places that converted to Christianity: Roman Empire, Most of Europe, Philippians, a lot of South America, America (every president was Christian), and others not off the top of my head (its midnight in Hong Kong, give me a break). You do raise a good point about war (if I understood "conflict" right). But most of the "holy wars" were attached to Christianity to enable the ignorant masses. Religion was used as an excuse here.

6) It's scientifically wrong because we are talking religion here. Did you want a hypothesis, procedure and analyzes describing how the Red Sea parted in the Bible?
It's logically contradicting because the New testament (in meager opinion) or more specifically, Jesus, was sent to change the understanding of Christianity up until that point. Jesus set a precedent that said, Christianity, while keeping it's fundamental values, must change according to times. Some have failed to see that in the Christian world.

7) I don't think God did support slavery or stoning of children (though the Bible does state the second). The bible was distorted by slave owners to justify slaves but if you find the actual quote (I think its in attachment with Noah and his sons) you'll see how dumb the interpretation was. The stoning of children was in the old testament, yet again I believe the old testament has to be taken with a grain of salt.

8) (finally) ouch, cancer. Isn't that what Agent Smith said about humanity? but thats neither here nor there. The stat you gave exists, I think, because prisoners want to look good for parole, prisoners faign faith. But that's just a guess. If you could give the exact source, I could see if I'm right or wrong.

It's a sad day for Christians when Atheist stop thinking we're naive and start thinking we're cruel. I hope I've at least convinced you that we aren't all the raving loonies you've made us out to be.

P.S. not bad for a first post. and please forgive any spelling/grammar errors.

[Winter wind]

Ok, since Athena double posted, I'm going to assume I can to.

I've looked over the entire thread now and am glad I got here when I did.

To Christians
Every time Christians say Atheists are naturally immoral, I die a little on the inside. This was stated by loser somewhere. Atheist does not equate to lack of moral system.

Also, I don't care enough about the title to nit pick on it.

To Atheists (Lullaby Chainer in particular).
You do seem to be lumping all Christians into the category "Christian Right". I don't think I fall under that category. In fact, I spend my free time trying to convince people on the Christian Right (in an internet forum) that Jesus was not a family man.
Also there seems to be a false dichotomy here. Either God is evil because the Bible says so or the Bible is wrong therefore God doesn't exist. A big thing in Christianity is how no one is perfect. This applies to authors of the books of the Bible. You really have to take historical context into account if you are going to interpret the Bible.

Tsk. So pessimistic. You haven't mentioned Heaven (maybe you have and I missed it, I'm not perfect). You are kinda focused on all the bad things about Christianity that you ignore the upsides to it. Love, Forgiveness, An extended hand to the poor and needy. These are reasons to believe in Christianity. But if you insist on only seeing the reasons why not to believe, then of course you can't believe.

I can't give specific example from the thread to support some of my claims, I just ask for your mercy at one in the morning. But i don't think I put words in anyone's mouth. Even so, go easy on my post. It's Junior year and my head's about to explode. My logic may be flawed here or there.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Winter wind Ok, since Athena double posted, I'm going to assume I can to. I've looked over the entire thread now and am glad I got here when I did. To Christians Every time Christians say Atheists are naturally immoral, I die a little on the inside. This was stated by loser somewhere. Atheist does not equate to lack of moral system. Also, I don't care enough about the title to nit pick on it. To Atheists (Lullaby Chainer in particular). You do seem to be lumping all Christians into the category "Christian Right". I don't think I fall under that category. In fact, I spend my free time trying to convince people on the Christian Right (in an internet forum) that Jesus was not a family man. Also there seems to be a false dichotomy here. Either God is evil because the Bible says so or the Bible is wrong therefore God doesn't exist. A big thing in Christianity is how no one is perfect. This applies to authors of the books of the Bible. You really have to take historical context into account if you are going to interpret the Bible. Tsk. So pessimistic. You haven't mentioned Heaven (maybe you have and I missed it, I'm not perfect). You are kinda focused on all the bad things about Christianity that you ignore the upsides to it. Love, Forgiveness, An extended hand to the poor and needy. These are reasons to believe in Christianity. But if you insist on only seeing the reasons why not to believe, then of course you can't believe. I can't give specific example from the thread to support some of my claims, I just ask for your mercy at one in the morning. But i don't think I put words in anyone's mouth. Even so, go easy on my post. It's Junior year and my head's about to explode. My logic may be flawed here or there.

You get plenty of mercy from me because I also see much to commend in Christianity while I fit few of the anti-religionists' defintiions of the "Christian Right"--few Christians do actually. I also appreciate anybody who puts more thought into it than strict dogma sanctioned by any particular Christian group. I actually think all religions have a piece of the truth and there are religions other than Christianity that also have much to commend them. However, only opinions expressed by the anti-religionists seem to be permissable.

I gave it a shot, but I am opting out of the blow-by-blow analysis of points put forth by the thread author So far most or all sources provided to support the pertinent points are non responsive and/or erroneous and/or too much of a stretch to relate to the topic. The threat author offers statements that could be debated, but they are laced with so much inflammatory personal opinion and so many logical fallacies as to make any kind of real debate unlikely.

Do not despise your youth. You are more wise than you may realize.

[rez]

Quote by: Winter wind You are kinda focused on all the bad things about Christianity that you ignore the upsides to it. Love, Forgiveness, An extended hand to the poor and needy. These are reasons to believe in Christianity.

Good try. If love, forgiveness, helping the poor and needy were only created through Christianity, then you would have a point. However, you and I know those things are not. And since they are not there would be no reason to believe in Christianity because you can obtain those things without Christianity.

[rez]

Quote by: Foxfyre I actually think all religions have a piece of the truth and there are religions other than Christianity that also have much to commend them.

This is just waffling, but luckily you still atleast said something debatable.

Claiming someone has a piece of the truth is dishonest. Nobody on the face of the earth has a god like view of the universe. Perhaps if we were dealing with a closed system that was simple and easy to understand then maybe there would be "truth". However, reality is an open and complex system that has a lot of undiscovered things and much of the discovered things are still not fully understood.

Personally I try to not make any claims about god and whether or not it exists, but I will address god advocates and the silly statements they do state.

[triad]

WARNING: The following post is extremely blunt.


God is an abstract form of subconscious thought to which the details that are incomprehensible for the human brain process as "faith".

The Bible is a paradox. It is a book about creation, but the book was created itself. Therefore, if the book is based on abstract theories and only uses words that were written as supporting evidence, then its original ideas on which it was based are also abstract.


Nothing about god or the existence of the universe is concrete. Therefore only the abstract can be used to explain it, even if it sounds really good - one abstract idea does not force another abstract idea to concede when trying to explain the unknown (the supernatural).



Why would a theory on our existence be allowed to dictate our lives? After all, that is all the bible is - a theory. If it were fact and not theory, then the evidence to support that would be concrete. Instead, what it is it? Abstract.


Why does religion - Christianity especially - forfeit rationality when speaking of the existence of the being of - being? God is the exception to every rule only because every rule is only a mere thought or form of taboo. Who made these rules? Humans. We didn't make them, but we have tried to understand them and form a basic "law" around them. So God is essentially breaking the rules that we as Humans have set? Our science has found out the laws of nature - we may have experienced them instantly upon birth into earth, but science has made us understand them and become aware of their existence.


Human intelligence is ironic. If it were not for intelligence we wouldn't know intelligence. If it were not for intelligence we would not question, we would just live for survival and not advance our science and technology as a race and constantly evolve our intelligence into more intelligence.


If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it.. Does it make a sound? A little cliché.. But try this. If no intelligence existed in the human brain - would the law of gravity exist? Does a dog know gravity? Experience wise, a dog feels gravity and lives within it's effects, but is the dog aware and conscious of gravity?


Same goes for god. If we did not have the ability to wonder why we were here, god would definitely not exist. Since his existence is only real in abstract thought, that is as far as he exists. Its some matrix shit right here - anything that is understandable by humans only exists because humans understand it..?


If humans did not exist, then surely the earth would exist - but intelligence with thought that is aware of it’s existence would not exist. I know the word ‘exist’ is being killed right now, but think of it this way:

You are reading words right now that were designed and developed by humans. Start from there, and work your way up. Ask me for help if you get stuck

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Foxfyre I actually think all religions have a piece of the truth and there are religions other than Christianity that also have much to commend them.

Quote by: rez This is just waffling, but luckily you still atleast said something debatable. Claiming someone has a piece of the truth is dishonest. Nobody on the face of the earth has a god like view of the universe. Perhaps if we were dealing with a closed system that was simple and easy to understand then maybe there would be "truth". However, reality is an open and complex system that has a lot of undiscovered things and much of the discovered things are still not fully understood. Personally I try to not make any claims about god and whether or not it exists, but I will address god advocates and the silly statements they do state.

Not waffling at all. There would be no Christianity without Judaism and much of what Christianity teaches as well as many Christian customs and many accepted virtues come straight out of Jewish traditions. Christianity, once it embraced the Gentiles, also took some customs from Paganism and made these into their own unique traditions that would be pretty unrecognizable to most Pagans. Who can argue with Hindu virtues of chastity, compassion, honesty, etc. etc. etc.? Who can argue that there is not common sense encompassed in the four virtues of Buddhism? Even Islam has its moments. From the Qu'ran: ""Lo! This Qur'an guideth unto that which is straightest, and giveth glad tidings unto the believers who do good works, that theirs will be a great reward . . ." and ""..be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity. . . .2:110)

I think anybody who was the least bit open minded and intellectually honest would be hard put to find any religion on the planet that didn't promote at least one concept or principle of virtue that we all could agree was both honorable and true. So how is acknowledging such 'pieces of the truth' dishonest?

Meanwhile, I made absolutely zero claim or even comment about anybody's "godlike view of the universe". Also I made no claim about God, but, without going into detail, I do know something about God's advocates on Earth by whatever tradition they identify themselves.

But if you make no claim about God, how do you know that the claims made by His/Her/Its advocates are silly?

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Why I lack belief in God. 1.There are dozens of pre-Christian gods and messiahs that were born on December 25th, of a virgin, who had 12 disciples, performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water, crucified and resurrected three days later, and are known, by their inventors and followers, as such things like the Lamb of God and the King of Kings. Jesus is the most recent of a long list of plagiarized gods and holds no credibility. In fact, the entire Christian myth is taken directly from Egyptian myth. For instance, the 10 commandments are from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The founders of Christianity acknowledged this but offered that Satan crafted the Pagan world to discredit Jesus. This explanation is still held by many religious leaders today. 2.Out of the 40 historians or so that lived during or soon after the supposed life of Jesus, none of them document any Jesus figure. It is ludicrous to think that a man who did all of the things ascribed to Jesus in the Bible would go completely undocumented by the many historians of the time. The Bible itself was written decades after the supposed life of Jesus. 3.The Christian justice system is a barbaric, idiotic, and ridiculous bifurcated mess of extreme bias and lop-sided foundations. Christianity takes crimes as despicable as murder, rape, cruelty, genocide, and so forth and deems them forgivable by an act as trivial as accepting Jesus as your savior. What moral foundations are there that back up the forgiveness of horrible deeds by simply accepting something that, demonstratively, does no statistical good at reversing these evil behaviors. 4.Furthermore, on the topic of a deranged justice system, the Bible condemns those who want to believe in God, but can't, with Hell. Many atheists and deists would love to believe the Christian story, and even attempt so regularly, but reason, logic, science, and rationality enslave them from believing in nonsense. The crime of intellectual honesty harms no one, but the Bible sees it worthy of eternal punishment. In fact, if I may ask, what finite sin is deserving of infinite punishment? Any sin that leads others to Hell is not a reasonable example of a sin deserving of Hell because that, in logic, is circular. The conclusion of the argument is assumed in the premise. 5.No Christian has been able to sensibly defend why the means of enlightenment, the story of Jesus, is so poor of a method of conversion that the room for conflict is not only vast, but invited. A test of faith is not an acceptable answer. There is no test of faith worth the infinite damnation of billions. 6.No Christian has been able to sensibly defend why the Bible is completely scientifically wrong as well as logically contradicting. This problem leads millions away from the Christian god, and once again, a test of faith is not an acceptable answer. There is no test of faith worth the infinite damnation of billions. 7.I can't worship a God that supports slavery or the stoning of children. 8.Christianity, and religion in general, is a proven cancer to society. It has been shown that the more secular nations, in general, experience far less rates of violence and are more charitable in that they give more foreign aid to struggling countries. Atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less numerous in the prison population (0.21%). Why would the holy works of a perfect being be so ineffective if not hazardous? Look me in the eye and tell me.. "you deserve Hell." You must be addressing at least one of the above 8 when posting in this thread. No going off-topic.

#1
No clue what you are about to express.

(Based on thoughts expressed within this point), I assume you think that every religion carries the fundament for its own God.
If "yes", here is the question :
- which God's sunshine is reaching your body ?
and/or
- do you have your own Sun ? that is shinning (religion-free), exclusively, for you ?
How many Suns we have in the Solar System, finally ?

(In one of my previous replies, posted in some threads) I already wrote :
- there is 1(one) Creator/God/Intellect/Mind/Presence etc. in the Universe we live-in, and religion has not much in common with it - but an individual's mind, since when the Universe we live-in was created, there was No any religion (!)
Exception : prove that an atom possesses a self-creation ability.
(Not quotted, though.)

#2
What circa 40 historians are you refering to ?

#3
What is : Christian justice ?
Can you specify that terminology ?

#4
Are you trying to find some "guilty party" , for not comprehending a submitted information and/or material ?
Is that my fault you take all the data written within the Bible, literally ?
How about your parents/guardians ? Do not you think they should take care of that, instead ?
How about yourself ?

"The crime of intellectual honesty harms no one"
What is that ?

#5, #6
This is a False assertion, since a phrase "No Christian" indicates, that out of all the Christians - none complied. That is a lie, since you have no data of all the Christians.
Nevertheless, I already questioned the same subject within Volcanvo forum. Therefore, subtract my name (posted within your ranking-list), please.

"test of faith is not acceptable answer" ?
By what means, it is not acceptable ? By your own ones ?
As an example, bare in your mind, that an employer tests you every single day you come to your work and report to your post.
Is it acceptable ?

#7
How about God that promotes rape ? sodomy ? prostitution ?
How about God that grants you $1 million, as the result of winning lottery numbers, weekly ?
Etc.

#8
What secular nations with lower crime-rates do you mean ?
How about comparing number of rich Theists vs Atheists ?
I think B. Gates (alone) would sweep away any competition, himself.

A notice aside
---------------------
"Why I lack belief in God."

"Look me in the eye and tell me.. "you deserve Hell."

"You must be addressing at least one of the above 8 when posting in this thread. No going off-topic."

#1
No clue on your testimonial credo, since that is None of my business the way your parents/guardians took care of you, including yourself.

#2
???

#3
I take it as a childish desire, posted in an attempt your post to be taken very seriously. A sort of joke.
Here, it is the explanation :
- you have "Zero" rights and/or privileges, the Volcanvo forum's members to follow your conditional demand.

However, what you can - regarding the subject, is :
- kindly Ask, the Volcanvo forum members to follow your request
Guys would be more greatful than you think, indeed.

Also, that is Not your thread.
In the same moment you click on the "submit" botton, you need to realize that ALL the Volcanvo forum members have all the rights and privileges to post within (it), as long as they comply with Volcanvo forum's rights and regulations.

Exception :
Set of rights and privileges have been granted exclusively to you, under the following condition :
- the ownership and/or restricted rights and privileges
If "yes", direct me to that data, and disregard my notice #3, please.

Determination
---------------------
There are years ahead of you, then try to spend them well.
Otherwise, you are wasting your own life.

P.S.
I did not have to follow your conditional demand - must, and comply with all these points. I did a favour for you, instead.

[bigdeeno]

Quote by Lullaby;
bigdeeno, I have spent a large majority of my life searching for God with an open heart. He did not answer, and to be honest, he's doing a hell of a good job making sure I don't believe.

Also, this isn't the place to preach.


bigdeeno says,

Why is this not the place to preach? You state our opinion, I state mine.

I don't know your life, but it sounds like mine.

Are you sure you honestly seached for him? Or does Satan know exactly what to hit you with so that you will doubt God? Have you truly let God control your life? If not, how do you expect God to prove himself to you.

Give him an honest chance to prove himself to you. I doubt he won't.......

[bigdeeno]

Also, if there is a God who created the whole world/universe/ everything we know, how do you expect to reason, logically explain, prove thru science, and rationalalize something which you cannot possibly comprehend.
Sounds like pride. Reasearch what got Lucifer kick out of heaven....

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: bigdeeno Why is this not the place to preach? You state our opinion, I state mine.

Because this is a place to debate issues.. not what we think others should do with their lives.

Quote by: bigdeeno I don't know your life, but it sounds like mine.

Doesn't matter. If you stick with us long enough you'll learn proper debate etiquette in no time.

Quote by: bigdeeno Are you sure you honestly seached for him? Or does Satan know exactly what to hit you with so that you will doubt God? Have you truly let God control your life? If not, how do you expect God to prove himself to you. Give him an honest chance to prove himself to you. I doubt he won't.......

This is more preaching. Stop.

This is a debate site. Debate.

You don't know anything about my life and what I've done to try to find God. If you want to preach to people, go to your local busy intersection and babble all you want.