Why Democracy and not Theocracy

[Osborn F Enready]

Century25 said: Utter nonsense. True democracy is entirely comprised of checks & balances, via the popular vote.

The popular vote, without unalienable rights, would allow any atrocity to take place by any majority, over any minority vote.

Is this not obvious common sense?

Century25 said: . the people's choice. As it is in our country, we have a plutocracy, masquerading as a "democratic Republic" - eek.. what a sick trick...!!

What country are you speaking of, and if the U.S., are you speaking of CURRENT government being a plutocracy, or the government as FOUNDED?

Century25 said: TJ (Thomas Jefferson) was a brilliant man.. and wanted a true Democracy.

He was a brilliant man, but true democracy is a scham.

Century25 said: Alas.. here we sit only 231 years later.. in a decomposing carcass of a "democratic Republic".. slowly but surely circling the drain..

I agree, but sadly, it doesn't seem you understand the unconstitutional changes it took to get us here.

I suggest you do a little more investigating.

[Athena]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy An educated mass is only important if you want the democratic decisions made to be reasonable ones. An unreasonable election is still democratic. The problem you describe isn't a lack of democracy; it's a populace of illogical sheeple. Democracy is neither the problem nor the solution to unreasonable decisions; it's simply the vehicle. From my experience of people, it will never be a vehicle for reason.

To understand why Thomas Jefferson, and others, supported the American Revolution, is to understand what they believed about humanity and education. The most exciting thing about democracy is what education of the masses can do. Democracy is the solution to all human problems, when those who have it, understand the importance of education. Unlike religion that can only endure evils or make itself an evil, democracy can identify and resolves problems when the masses are educated to do so, and this is the only way to liberty!

This is not all Jefferson said of education, but a good start.

Jefferson -- Quotations on Education Education: Jefferson Quotations 1785. "An honest heart being the first blessing, a knowing head is the second." (to Peter Carr, 19 August) 1786. "Knowledge indeed is a desirable, a lovely possession." (to Thomas M. Randolph, 27 August) 1789. "Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government." (to Richard Price) 1810. "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than I do, and none has greater confidence in its effect towards supporting free and good government." (to Hugh L. White) 1816. "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day . . . . I believe it [human condition] susceptible of much improvement, and most of all, in matters of government and religion; and that the diffusion of knowledge among the people is to be the instrument by which it is effected." (to Dupont de Nemours, 24 April) 1818. "If the children . . . are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences, than it would have done, in their correction, by a good education." (to Joseph C. Cabell) 1818. "A system of general education, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest." (to Joseph C. Cabell) 1820. "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesom discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." (to Wiliam C. Jarvis, 28 September) 1822. "I look to the diffusion of light and education as the resource to be relied on for ameliorating the condition, promoting the virtue, and advancing the happiness of man." (to C. C. Blatchly)

[Athena]

To understand anything about democracy, it is essential to understand the religious conflict between protestants and catholics and jews and muslims, and pursecution of those who had new religious thought and of men of science. Our education for technology is not teaching the history essential to understanding our democracy, and Christianity may very well be part of the problem.

Jeffereson wrote of nature's laws and of nature's God, and we must know of Cicero and ancient philosophers to know what he is talking about. Time and again, I have said, science is to democracy, what the bible is to autocracy. In a theocracy you only need to teach from the holy book. In a democracy you must educate the people. This has everything to do with discovering God through the sciences. It has everything to do with learning good moral judgement based on reason.

Cicero: Philosophy, Metaphysics of Cicero's 'Nature of the Gods'. Quotes Pictures Biography Cicero There are many questions in philosophy to which no satisfactory answer has yet to be given. But the question of the nature of the gods is the darkest and most difficult of all. Yet an answer to this question could shed the clearest light upon the nature of our own minds and also give us the essential guidance which we need in our religion. So various and so contradictory are the opinions of the most learned men on this matter as to persuade one of the truth of the saying that philosophy is the child of ignorance: and that the philosophers of the Academy have been wise in withholding their consent from any proposition that has not been proved. There is nothing worse than a hasty judgement, and nothing could be more unworthy of the dignity and integrity of a philosopher than uncritically to adopt a false opinion or to maintain as certain some theory which has not been fully explored and understood. (Cicero) Are you not ashamed as a scientist, as an observer and investigator of nature, to seek your criterion of truth from minds steeped in conventional beliefs? (Cicero) .. as a philosopher, I have a right to ask for a rational explanation of religious faith. (Cicero) Cicero realised the unity and interconnection of the universe, as he writes; God and the world of Nature must be one, and all the life of the world must be contained within the being of God. (Cicero) The idea that 'All is One' is the foundation of philosophy and comes from the ancient Eastern and Greek Philosophers (~ 5th Century B.C.). Along with these ancient philosophers, Cicero also believed the universe was eternal. .. it is improbable that the material substance which is the origin of all things was created by divine Providence. It has and has always had a force and nature of its own. (Cicero) Western Physics (with its particles and forces in 'Space Time' ) has never correctly understood the wisdom of ancient philosophy (All is One and Interconnected / Dynamic Unity of Reality). It is also important to understand that the ancient philosophers did not actually know how the universe was a dynamic unity, what matter was, how the One Thing caused and connected the many things. Recent discoveries on the properties of Space and the Wave Structure of Matter (Wolff, Haselhurst) confirm that we can understand Reality, 'the true nature of the gods' and the interconnection of all things from a logical / scientific foundation. (As Cicero, Leo Tolstoy and Albert Einstein ask for, a rational explanation of religious faith.) We hope you enjoy the following biography and quotations of Cicero.

[Century 25]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready The popular vote, without unalienable rights, would allow any atrocity to take place by any majority, over any minority vote. Is this not obvious common sense?

It is ludicrous. Not sense at all. Do you believe you could get enough racists to allow "any atrocity to take place by any majority, over any minority vote." (your words)..?? What a fable. In fact, we would have had equality for all people here in America.. not the atrocities that we have in fact endured under our plutocratic regime..

"What country are you speaking of, and if the U.S., are you speaking of CURRENT government being a plutocracy, or the government as FOUNDED? "

Plutocracy has been our "government" since the get go. They hustled Democracy, the scam you speak of, right off the table. How could they control the will of the people..?? It was easy at the time.. the small population was mostly ignorant.. illiterate. So they claimed that necessitated the electoral vote.. in order to give the ignorant a voice in who is chosen as "president" (over them) -- so long as it comes down to the very person the "electors" wanted. Jefferson knew what we needed. Democracy.. is never a scam. In fact, Mr Bush loves to bleat the word Democracy out every chance he gets. Especially when "helping" other nations to "do it our way" -- :eek:

" He was a brilliant man, but true democracy is a scham."

See above.

I think that is redundant.. that ground has been pounded to death. How do you think we had slavery.. all through our grand constitutional beginnings..?? And to this day, this country allows it's owners.. the corporations, to decree our lives..?? Yes, plutocracy has always been our way.

[Athena]

Quote by: Century 25 It is ludicrous. Not sense at all. Do you believe you could get enough racists to allow "any atrocity to take place by any majority, over any minority vote." (your words)..?? What a fable. In fact, we would have had equality for all people here in America.. not the atrocities that we have in fact endured under our plutocratic regime..

I am afraid I do not understand what you have said. Atrocities are constantly committed. The most obvious is the Ku Klux Klan, and their discrimination and murding of black people, and immunity of Ku Klux Klan members to the man made laws, when their own kind holds the power. However, karma (God's law or universeal law) does come to play, even when White folk can get away with the atrocities. The relationships between blacks and whites are still tense, and we are still dealing the pain and injustice and shame and fear. Only when people understand the law of karma, is their judgement good. When we don't understand morals are a matter of cause and effect, we can have bad judgment and do terrible things. It can be three generations before we start becoming aware of the problem caused by bad judgment, but sooner or later, the problem is too big to ignore.

[Athena]

Quote by: Century 25 It is ludicrous. Not sense at all. Do you believe you could get enough racists to allow "any atrocity to take place by any majority, over any minority vote." (your words)..?? What a fable. In fact, we would have had equality for all people here in America.. not the atrocities that we have in fact endured under our plutocratic regime.. Plutocracy has been our "government" since the get go. They hustled Democracy, the scam you speak of, right off the table. How could they control the will of the people..?? It was easy at the time.. the small population was mostly ignorant.. illiterate. So they claimed that necessitated the electoral vote.. in order to give the ignorant a voice in who is chosen as "president" (over them) -- so long as it comes down to the very person the "electors" wanted. Jefferson knew what we needed. Democracy.. is never a scam. In fact, Mr Bush loves to bleat the word Democracy out every chance he gets. Especially when "helping" other nations to "do it our way" -- :eek: See above. I think that is redundant.. that ground has been pounded to death. How do you think we had slavery.. all through our grand constitutional beginnings..?? And to this day, this country allows it's owners.. the corporations, to decree our lives..?? Yes, plutocracy has always been our way.

I think you have democracy confused with a form of government. Our form of government is a republic. Our culture is based on democratic principles.

Free public education began before people needed education to work, and had nothing to do with vocational training. It was about teaching a set of American values, and knowing parents would learn them from their children. Our liberty, depended on this education, because the education resulted in social order that, maintained a natural law and order, without having to make a bunch of man made laws, and hiring a lot of people to enforce them. We collected taxes from all the people, and educated all the children, because this is the best way to maintain liberty and make our republic strong.

We have been a democratic republic, whereas, Germany was an autocratic and authoritarian republic. However, democracy as culture, is like religion. It can not be forced on people, only taught, and the culture must be learned before the people can manifest it. We stopped preparing our young for democracy, and have become an increasingly authoritarian republic.

When people built their city hall, and other public buildings, with their own hands, and governed themselves in town hall meetings, they were not ruled by a plutocracy. Tocqueville who was a Frenchman and observed our young democracy in the 1820's wrote a glowing report about how citizens did so much for themselves without govern interference, but he was also a highly intelligent man who saw the dangers of what Christian democracies would become. He was amazingly correct! The increase of government control over our lives has sky rocketed in my life time. I am horrified by the radical change in our country and the accuracy of Tocqueville's predictions. But then we stopped educating for democracy in 1958, and began instead of relying on an educated citizenry, but our faith in technology, and turned our schools into production factories, producing our young to be parts for the Borg. Osborn greases the wheels for our decent into hell.

Please, this thread is about how we come to know reality, not politics. Do you think it is better to base your concept of reality on science or the bible? Do you think it is better to have authority over the people, or educate them to be their own authority?

[Century 25]

Quote by: Athena I am afraid I do not understand what you have said. Atrocities are constantly committed. The most obvious is the Ku Klux Klan, and their discrimination and murding of black people, and immunity of Ku Klux Klan members to the man made laws, when their own kind holds the power. However, karma (God's law or universeal law) does come to play, even when White folk can get away with the atrocities. The relationships between blacks and whites are still tense, and we are still dealing the pain and injustice and shame and fear. Only when people understand the law of karma, is their judgement good. When we don't understand morals are a matter of cause and effect, we can have bad judgment and do terrible things. It can be three generations before we start becoming aware of the problem caused by bad judgment, but sooner or later, the problem is too big to ignore.

Yes Athena.. they are. That is exactly what I have been saying. Under our "democratic Republic" - that has always been the case. Under a Democracy that wouldn't fly. Those black slaves were kidnapped from their African native lands.. for slavery in our wonderful land of equal opportunity.. and have been relegated to 2nd class citizenship since being freed after a bloody "civil" war. 145 years ago. What is it you do not understand...??

[Century 25]

Quote by: Athena I think you have democracy confused with a form of government. Our form of government is a republic. Our culture is based on democratic principles. Free public education began before people needed education to work, and had nothing to do with vocational training. It was about teaching a set of American values, and knowing parents would learn them from their children. Our liberty, depended on this education, because the education resulted in social order that, maintained a natural law and order, without having to make a bunch of man made laws, and hiring a lot of people to enforce them. We collected taxes from all the people, and educated all the children, because this is the best way to maintain liberty and make our republic strong. We have been a democratic republic, whereas, Germany was an autocratic and authoritarian republic. However, democracy as culture, is like religion. It can not be forced on people, only taught, and the culture must be learned before the people can manifest it. We stopped preparing our young for democracy, and have become an increasingly authoritarian republic. When people built their city hall, and other public buildings, with their own hands, and governed themselves in town hall meetings, they were not ruled by a plutocracy. Tocqueville who was a Frenchman and observed our young democracy in the 1820's wrote a glowing report about how citizens did so much for themselves without govern interference, but he was also a highly intelligent man who saw the dangers of what Christian democracies would become. He was amazingly correct! The increase of government control over our lives has sky rocketed in my life time. I am horrified by the radical change in our country and the accuracy of Tocqueville's predictions. But then we stopped educating for democracy in 1958, and began instead of relying on an educated citizenry, but our faith in technology, and turned our schools into production factories, producing our young to be parts for the Borg. Osborn greases the wheels for our decent into hell. Please, this thread is about how we come to know reality, not politics. Do you think it is better to base your concept of reality on science or the bible? Do you think it is better to have authority over the people, or educate them to be their own authority?

Athena.. I have hammered away many times of what a scam our "democratic Republic" is. It is a REPUBLIC.. first & foremost.

And yes.. through science is the only way to live. The "bible" is nonsensical.. riddled with riddles.. rapists & murderers. Why not teach children to live under the clear light of day, un-beset by fables..??

Under a Democracy, we could have been a free country, with equality for all. There wouldn't have been slavery.. forced child labor.. we never would have had "street urchins" or "gutter snipes" as those poor kids were referred to.. And it all continues to this day.. sweat shops, under American buisness' control.. here & around the world.

What a dismal, sick legacy for your "Democratic Republic"

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready The popular vote, without unalienable rights, would allow any atrocity to take place by any majority, over any minority vote. Is this not obvious common sense? What country are you speaking of, and if the U.S., are you speaking of CURRENT government being a plutocracy, or the government as FOUNDED? He was a brilliant man, but true democracy is a scham. I agree, but sadly, it doesn't seem you understand the unconstitutional changes it took to get us here. I suggest you do a little more investigating.

Don't imply that America is anything other than a true democracy.

No piece of paper means anything without people to execute its instructions. Do you know the real reason the Soviet Union died? Their rules were quite solid, the politicians were literally entrenched, their people weren't even armed, but nobody besides a few high ranking politicians wanted to keep going with the system. Their tank commanders were given an order to put down the crowds and defend the Kremlin, but when those commanders changed their minds the system just stopped running.

America is free. We don't have to surround our politicians to make them leave; we can just vote. We have guns. Laws exist because of the consent of the majority here more than anywhere.

That being said we're probably better off with some checks and balances and constitutional limits. Clearly the majority agrees.

[Osborn F Enready]

Century25 said: It is ludicrous. Not sense at all. Do you believe you could get enough racists to allow "any atrocity to take place by any majority, over any minority vote." (your words)..?? What a fable.

First of all, I don't know exactly what you are trying to say. Your question is not very clear, so if you would like, repeat it, word it more clearly, and I will answer.

Secondly, it seems you are denying what a true democracy is.

In a true democracy, majority rules, period. If the majority votes to eat the minority, or enslave them, or use them as "sacrifices" to some subjectively adored "god" (by majority of course), that would be their destiny, and they would have no voice or LAW to stand on to back them up in fighting those decisions.

Do you deny this?

Century25 said: In fact, we would have had equality for all people here in America.. not the atrocities that we have in fact endured under our plutocratic regime..

That is a statement that is both UNPROVEABLE and entirely subjective speculation. That argument can go right in the roundfile.

Century25 said: Plutocracy has been our "government" since the get go.

Are you really this ignorant on the facts of American history?

I ask you to PROVE this nonsense if you insist on spouting it.

Century25 said: They hustled Democracy, the scam you speak of, right off the table. How could they control the will of the people..?? It was easy at the time.. the small population was mostly ignorant.. illiterate. So they claimed that necessitated the electoral vote.. in order to give the ignorant a voice in who is chosen as "president" (over them) -- so long as it comes down to the very person the "electors" wanted.

So, am I to assume you are blaming the electoral college for all the faults in American politics?

I don't think you have made a point, but if you have, please point it out so I can rebutt it.

Century25 said: Jefferson knew what we needed. Democracy.. is never a scam.

Democracy is easily "overthrown", and if you can't see how, I would love to explain it to you.

Century25 said: In fact, Mr Bush loves to bleat the word Democracy out every chance he gets. Especially when "helping" other nations to "do it our way" --

Again, do you have a point, or just ranting?

Century25 said: I think that is redundant.. that ground has been pounded to death. How do you think we had slavery.. all through our grand constitutional beginnings..??

It should be obvious if you studied history. Slavery wasn't abolished from the beginning, because the support of many of the slave owners was needed to seperate from England. Without allowing slavery in the beginning, chances are the "revolt" would have failed.

You act as if the U.S. created slavery, when really we were only one small part in a global slave trade, and one of the first to grant blacks full rights, as well as women.

Neither could have been done without the objective principles in the Bill of Rights.

Century25 said: And to this day, this country allows it's owners.. the corporations, to decree our lives..?? Yes, plutocracy has always been our way.

I don't deny where we "are" today politically, I deny your lies and propaganda of our founding Constitution, and the system as designed.

If you wish to continue, please provide some facts and references if you intend to make valid points, and I will provide all the counter-points you can endure.

[Osborn F Enready]

Thanatos said: Don't imply that America is anything other than a true democracy.

Why, do you have something against "correctness"?

Why should I lie?

Thanatos said: No piece of paper means anything without people to execute its instructions.

Point?

Thanatos said: Do you know the real reason the Soviet Union died? Their rules were quite solid, the politicians were literally entrenched, their people weren't even armed, but nobody besides a few high ranking politicians wanted to keep going with the system. Their tank commanders were given an order to put down the crowds and defend the Kremlin, but when those commanders changed their minds the system just stopped running. America is free. We don't have to surround our politicians to make them leave; we can just vote.

So, you have full faith in the voting system, the bi-partisan monopoly on power that has existed for 157 years straight?



Sure.

Thanatos said: We have guns.

Why?

Thanatos said: Laws exist because of the consent of the majority here more than anywhere. That being said we're probably better off with some checks and balances and constitutional limits. Clearly the majority agrees.

Sure could have fooled me. I see a lot of sheeple running around looking for new, more intrusive shepards everyday.

[Athena]

Quote by: Century 25 Yes Athena.. they are. That is exactly what I have been saying. Under our "democratic Republic" - that has always been the case. Under a Democracy that wouldn't fly. Those black slaves were kidnapped from their African native lands.. for slavery in our wonderful land of equal opportunity.. and have been relegated to 2nd class citizenship since being freed after a bloody "civil" war. 145 years ago. What is it you do not understand...??

Okay, we seem to have agreement here. And let us be very clear, the South used the bible to support slavery. Throughout history, and around the world, people have held concepts of "us" and "them", and justified terrible inequality and their own cruelty to others. I started a thread about human nature to discuss this fact of life.

Now if we become literate in Greek and Roman classics, we become enlightened, and realize the error of such faulty thinking. Add to this, a scientific point of view, which is strongly encouraged by the classics, and things get even better. Technology made a huge difference as well. Shoot, we even let women, who we all know are inferior to black males, to have good paying jobs, and allow them to buy their own homes in their own names, thanks to advances in technology.

However, let us be clear, the population of the US was not highly literate. Some people learned to read, because protestants thought people should read and study the bible for themselves, but they stopped short of studying the bible. Even if they wanted to read more, books were hard to come by, and public libraries and book stores as we have today, were none existant. None of the European immigrants had experience with democracy. Those who settled outside of the king's domain, were the first to have self government, and they were theocrats, intolerant of those who held different beliefs. The bible is not a book for democracy, and Martin Luther's understanding of reality, sure was not equality and democracy, but justified inequality and autocracy.

The Age of Enlightenment, and the inspiration for a democracy with a republican form of government, was literacy in Greek and Roman classics. When I say, democracy is dependent on education, because it is like religion and must be learned before it can be manifest, what does that mean others?

[Athena]

Quote by: Century 25 Athena.. I have hammered away many times of what a scam our "democratic Republic" is. It is a REPUBLIC.. first & foremost. And yes.. through science is the only way to live. The "bible" is nonsensical.. riddled with riddles.. rapists & murderers. Why not teach children to live under the clear light of day, un-beset by fables..?? Under a Democracy, we could have been a free country, with equality for all. There wouldn't have been slavery.. forced child labor.. we never would have had "street urchins" or "gutter snipes" as those poor kids were referred to.. And it all continues to this day.. sweat shops, under American buisness' control.. here & around the world. What a dismal, sick legacy for your "Democratic Republic"

Thank you for your willingness to discuss democracy. I guess it is important to clarify that democracy is not the same thing as the United States. Democracy is an ideology with a set of principles that must be learned to be manifest. This is a philosophical thread, not a poltical one. I think your arguments, and certainly Osborn's, tip into a political debate, rather than being a philosophical debate. Democracy comes from philosophy and historical experience, and opposes religious truths, or at least questions them. Another source of understanding democracy is the Federation of Six Nations (native Americans), who were developmentally closer to the first political organizations of the Greeks.

Those coming from an unenlightened, Judeo/Christian/Euro back ground have a difficult time understanding democracy, because their beliefs tend to prevent them from learning something different.

The real question of this thread is how do we determine what is reality and our relationship with reality and each other? Do we do this by studying a holy book with the idea it is the word of God, and everything we need to know is in that book, or by studying nature? Democracy is secular, based on secular philosophy, and depends on studying nature. A theocracy depends on studying a holy book. Which do you think is best?

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Why, do you have something against "correctness"? Why should I lie? Point? So, you have full faith in the voting system, the bi-partisan monopoly on power that has existed for 157 years straight? Sure. Why? Sure could have fooled me. I see a lot of sheeple running around looking for new, more intrusive shepards everyday.

Excuse me, this thread is posted in the philosophy and religion forum, not the political forum. Please, take the political debating to the political forum, and use what you know of philosophy or religion or human nature, for this forum.

[Century 25]

For Athena & Osborn F Enready.. Athena first, you last said to us in general:

"Excuse me, this thread is posted in the philosophy and religion forum, not the political forum. Please, take the political debating to the political forum, and use what you know of philosophy or religion or human nature, for this forum."

You hit the nail upon it's head.. you started the thread asking: "Why Democracy and not Theology" -- almost apropos.. I should have linked the Theological component along with the Plutocratic, that is most nearly our form of govt.. a "Plutocratic Theocracy".. the strong connection that the pluto's use to their utmost advantage. How easy to better control the masses.. an ignorant "faithful" & "god fearing" population.. so sad.

Now Osborn F said:

"In a true democracy, majority rules, period. If the majority votes to eat the minority, or enslave them, or use them as "sacrifices" to some subjectively adored "god" (by majority of course), that would be their destiny, and they would have no voice or LAW to stand on to back them up in fighting those decisions. Do you deny this?"

You merely parrot the Plutocrat chant. The fact is, America was founded as a Republic, and specifically not as a democracy. This is purely and simply a fact of our history that’s been buried from the consciousness of late 20th & early 21st century Americans..

Here is one quick example, this from a past mayor of New York City:

"The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses... This little coterie...run our government for their own selfish ends. It operates under cover of a self-created screen...seizes...our executive officers...legislative bodies...schools... courts...newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.”

John Hylan, Mayor, NYC (1918—1925)

So.. it's the SOS.. different year.. century..

So, like Wordsworth.. we have had intimations of greatness.. tantalizing.. to be sure.. but, alas, just as fleeting as his "immortality" -it looked wonderful as an ode.. nothing more. Our "democratic-republic" is nothing also. It is a super.. Military-Industrial-Media Complex. Hylan would not be shocked. He knew what flew..


.

.

[Century 25]

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

..Thomas Jefferson

I am a patriot. I want America to succeed.. I want Americans to strive for greatness.. to reach for the stars.. not to sink into a fetid morass of.. not even mediocrity.. but worse, much worse. But even as optimistic as I am.. I don't even know the meaning of quitting.. I believe our "America" is mortally wounded.. and is too far gone to save.

.