My Problems with Christianity

[Lullaby Chainer]

If a theist here can answer all of these questions to satisfactory levels, I will immediately turn neutral of Christianity.

-Explain why the story of Jesus is so impossible-to-be-a-coincidence-ly similar to previous gods like Horus, Mithra, and Dionysus.

-Explain the justification of punishing those who want to believe in God, but can't, with Hell. Many atheists and deists would love to believe the Christian story, and even attempt so regularly, but reason, logic, science, and rationality enslave them from believing in nonsense.

-Explain why any finite sin is deserving of infinite punishment. Any sin that leads others to Hell is not a reasonable example of a sin deserving of Hell because that, in logic, is circular. If there was no Hell, there would be no argument for a sin deserving of Hell because it leads others to Hell. The conclusion is assumed in the premise.

-Explain why crimes as despicable as murder, rape, cruelty, genocide, and so forth are forgivable by an act so trivial as accepting Jesus as your savior. What moral foundations are there that back up the forgiveness of horrible deeds by simply accepting something that is obscure to many and which, demonstratively, does no statistical good at reversing these evils.

-Explain why the means of enlightenment, the story of Jesus, is so poor of a method of conversion that the room for conflict is not only vast.. but invited. A test of faith is not an acceptable answer. There is no test of faith worth the infinite damnation of billions.


Thank you.

[butterbut]

"-Explain why the story of Jesus is so impossible-to-be-a-coincidence-ly similar to previous gods like Horus, Mithra, and Dionysus."

Please expand.


"-Explain the justification of punishing those who want to believe in God, but can't, with Hell. Many atheists and deists would love to believe the Christian story, and even attempt so regularly, but reason, logic, science, and rationality enslave them from believing in nonsense."

I don't know. To me its a relationship more than a beleif.


"-Explain why any finite sin is deserving of infinite punishment. Any sin that leads others to Hell is not a reasonable example of a sin deserving of Hell because that, in logic, is circular. If there was no Hell, there would be no argument for a sin deserving of Hell because it leads others to Hell. The conclusion is assumed in the premise.

-Explain why crimes as despicable as murder, rape, cruelty, genocide, and so forth are forgivable by an act so trivial as accepting Jesus as your savior. What moral foundations are there that back up the forgiveness of horrible deeds by simply accepting something that is obscure to many and which, demonstratively, does no statistical good at reversing these evils."

God's justice is not the same as our justice.


." -Explain why the means of enlightenment, the story of Jesus, is so poor of a method of conversion that the room for conflict is not only vast.. but invited. A test of faith is not an acceptable answer. There is no test of faith worth the infinite damnation of billions."

I don't understand this.


Remember, I'm entirely unqaulified to answer these questions and doubt there is anyone here that is. You should really ask a few preachers and see what you get. I know some will just give the ole "gotta have faith" answer but there are some that will give you some good stuff.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut Please expand.

Ask Google.

Quote by: butterbut I don't know. To me its a relationship more than a beleif.

This.. really.. doesn't answer anything at all.

Quote by: butterbut God's justice is not the same as our justice.

Then God, by my standards, is an evil bully. This doesn't make me want to worship him.

Quote by: butterbut I don't understand this.

I have no other way to explain it.

Quote by: butterbut Remember, I'm entirely unqaulified to answer these questions and doubt there is anyone here that is. You should really ask a few preachers and see what you get. I know some will just give the ole "gotta have faith" answer but there are some that will give you some good stuff.

I rarely see anything sensible come out of a preacher's mouth. So I sincerely doubt it.. but I'll keep looking.

[samsara15]

I would much rather talk to a non-preacher, myself. I agree that they seldom say anything sensible. Many Christians can give quite coherent reasons for their beliefs, but preachers almost always spout sanctimonious party line nonsense.

[Athena]

Some great questions are being asked, and Arawn-ap-Hywel's comment that our disconnection frrom nature is, lifelessness, is unnerving.

In my mind his though goes with what you said about destroying people's lives and being forgiven by Jesus. As you said, accepting Jesus, doesn't right our wrongs, and it is dispicable to me, to imagine someone destroying people's lives and getting off scott free, to enjoy pleasure for eterity. What of the people whose lives were destroyed? Shouldn't justice demand a wrong is balanced with a right?

We can not be disconnected from our past or nature, because that would be lifeless. But when we error, we can correct our errors or compensate for them.

And your question about proving our faith, is also unnerving. This thinking did lead to men sacrificing their children with the idea that such a sacrifice could not be rejected God, and would assure them that which they hoped to gain when making the scarifice. Sacrificing one's own son or daughter is the altimate sacrifice, and so powerful, we are told, that God sacrificed His own son.

However, I believe we all are connected with each other and every soul who ever lived. As I need to heal my body and mind when wounded, so to the spiritual mass of souls, of which I am apart. I am in agreement with Buddaist who pray for every soul who ever was or will be. That is life. Disconection is death. Connection is life. I guess I would say, God, is life. God is the universe made manifest.

[Athena]

Quote: Lullaby Chainer "-Explain the justification of punishing those who want to believe in God, but can't, with Hell. Many atheists and deists would love to believe the Christian story, and even attempt so regularly, but reason, logic, science, and rationality enslave them from believing in nonsense."

Quote: Butterbut I don't know. To me its a relationship more than a beleif.

I can relate to having a relationship with God, because I carry a concept of God and that evokes thoughts of right and wrong, and comes with feelings of awe and love and joy. However, this whole relationship is with a concept. That is, the relationship is with a "belief" of what is so. I project my own thoughts into what I think is so, and then have a relationship with my own thoughts. The reality of such a concept being more than a concept is questionable, but there is an experience and that is real.

Animals can have a close relation with nature, but I don't think they can have a relationship with God, because they do not conceptionalize a God.

I am not sure what God is, and do not believe holy books are God's truth, but I experience all the feelings of having a relationship with something spiritual.

[5010]

butterbut,
#1 is basically "why isn't the story of Jesus original instead of having the elements of the stories mentioned?"

#2: Can a relationship be formed out of non-belief in Jesus? Not a positive one. Does God send to hell those who don't have a relationship even if they want to but can't even believe?

#4: You said
God's justice is not the same as our justice.

This is actually a good point, in my opinion.

#5 is wondering why the path provided by Jesus requires a leap of faith, which is irrational. Rational faith is that which needs no "leap". Also scripture talks of God's control over this process. For example, God actually hardening one's heart then punishing them for having a hard heart.

if you know a good preacher who likes to debate such questions, feel free to point them over to volconvo :)

[Athena]

Quote by: 5010 butterbut, #1 is basically "why isn't the story of Jesus original instead of having the elements of the stories mentioned?" #2: Can a relationship be formed out of non-belief in Jesus? Not a positive one. Does God send to hell those who don't have a relationship even if they want to but can't even believe? #4: You said God's justice is not the same as our justice. This is actually a good point, in my opinion. #5 is wondering why the path provided by Jesus requires a leap of faith, which is irrational. Rational faith is that which needs no "leap". Also scripture talks of God's control over this process. For example, God actually hardening one's heart then punishing them for having a hard heart. if you know a good preacher who likes to debate such questions, feel free to point them over to volconvo :)

Question 2 Does God judge us by our hearts or our intellect? Our hearts may be loving, while our intellect may find the God of holy books unbelievable.

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Then God, by my standards, is an evil bully. This doesn't make me want to worship him..

No God is rightous. He made us so he deserves our worship. He loves us too, so much so that he died on the cross for us.

[Chaossaber314]

I'm not trying to sound like I really know this stuff but I figured I'd give it a shot.

Explain why the story of Jesus is so impossible-to-be-a-coincidence-ly similar to previous gods like Horus, Mithra, and Dionysus.

Perhaps they are all describing the same person even if Jesus isn't the end. Ever play "telephone" in grade school where someone starts a message and passes it to one person and then another and then by the end the message is completely different?

It is awfully coincidental that all these cultures ended up with the same/similar stories. Somewhat similar to the flood myths present in all cultures.

Does it mean that they happened? I suppose it doesn't, but why is the assumption that one of these messianic figures didn't exist when we have more accounts of their existance?

-Explain the justification of punishing those who want to believe in God, but can't, with Hell.

I think it's a leap of faith to think that if God exists that he would be as arbitrary as an unwavering bureaucracy. "What? You were living on an island where Christianity never existed? To Hell with you!"

And perhaps hell is an empty threat? Does the bible ever mention any human individual being sent there besides renegade angels? I can't seem to remember. Perhaps there's a greater emphasis on purgatory? People exist until they can successfully be considered purified of their crimes. Then they move on. For some it would just take significantly more time than others.

Explain why crimes as despicable as murder, rape, cruelty, genocide, and so forth are forgivable by an act so trivial as accepting Jesus as your savior. What moral foundations are there that back up the forgiveness of horrible deeds by simply accepting something that is obscure to many and which, demonstratively, does no statistical good at reversing these evils.

I don't take forgiveness to indicate that there are no consequences for ones actions.

Explain why the means of enlightenment, the story of Jesus, is so poor of a method of conversion that the room for conflict is not only vast.. but invited. A test of faith is not an acceptable answer. There is no test of faith worth the infinite damnation of billions.

I guess this is a matter of opinion. I'm not sure where you're going with this one though.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut No God is rightous.

I'll repeat: to ME, by MY standards, God is an evil bully.

Quote by: butterbut He made us so he deserves our worship.

By this logic, I should be mandated to worship my parents.. even if they were evil, sinister, corrupt beings.

Quote by: butterbut He loves us too

Actions speak louder than words.

Quote by: butterbut so much so that he died on the cross for us.

He killed himself to free us from the curses he put on us? Are you mad?

I'm going to design an imperfect robot that I know will disobey me. In fact, I designed it in such ways, ways that I could have avoiding, so that they would disobey me. I'm then going to shove a pole up its ass and say it's its own fault that I made it that way. I'm then going to saw off my arm and demand that it love me for it or it'll suffer forever. God is a lunatic, an evil evil lunatic.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I'm not trying to sound like I really know this stuff but I figured I'd give it a shot. Perhaps they are all describing the same person even if Jesus isn't the end. Ever play "telephone" in grade school where someone starts a message and passes it to one person and then another and then by the end the message is completely different?

These gods existed before Jesus was supposedly born.

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Does it mean that they happened? I suppose it doesn't, but why is the assumption that one of these messianic figures didn't exist when we have more accounts of their existance?

Because plagiarism is a far greater possibility.

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I think it's a leap of faith to think that if God exists that he would be as arbitrary as an unwavering bureaucracy. "What? You were living on an island where Christianity never existed? To Hell with you!"

That’s not even remotely close to what I said.

I’m talking about people who WANT to believe in God, have open-heartedly searched for God, but they either can’t find him or things like reason, logic, science, and rationality enslave them from believing in such nonsense. They, by what the Bible says, will go to Hell. That’s infinite injustice and must be accounted for. Until I receive a decent explanation, God, to me, is evil.

Quote by: Chaossaber314 And perhaps hell is an empty threat? Does the bible ever mention any human individual being sent there besides renegade angels? I can't seem to remember. Perhaps there's a greater emphasis on purgatory? People exist until they can successfully be considered purified of their crimes. Then they move on. For some it would just take significantly more time than others.

Perhaps this, perhaps that. You’re making assumptions that contradict the Bible. The Bible clearly shows that those who deny God will go to Hell. We know for a fact this happens, thus we know for a fact that people go to Hell.

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I don't take forgiveness to indicate that there are no consequences for ones actions.

I’m glad, but that’s irrelevant.

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I guess this is a matter of opinion. I'm not sure where you're going with this one though.

On September 11th, 2001, un-Jesus-enlightened individuals flew a hi-jacked airplane into two towers, killing many. That’s NOT an opinion.

[Alive]

I'm not Christian, but I have a certain respect for the religion.

1. All beliefs are descended from earlier beliefs combined with new experiences and outside ideas, including yours. Why is this a challenge?
2. The modern concept of "Hell" is completely extrabiblical. There are mentions of "Hellfire" in the Bible but not much of a description of what it is. It is definitely not the focus of "pure" Christianity. The "belief in god" thing is also extrabiblical; nowhere is this commanded.
3. First you ask why finite sins should lead to infinite punishment, then you ask why murder should be forgiven by "trivial" acts? I'm not Christian, but if a person repents, I say forgive them; people are made what they are by their surroundings anyways.

I don't understand your last question.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Alive I'm not Christian, but I have a certain respect for the religion. 1. All beliefs are descended from earlier beliefs combined with new experiences and outside ideas, including yours. Why is this a challenge?

Have you no understanding of the Christian claim? That Jesus is not just a collection of ideas that pass down from civilations?

Quote by: Alive 2. The modern concept of "Hell" is completely extrabiblical. There are mentions of "Hellfire" in the Bible but not much of a description of what it is. It is definitely not the focus of "pure" Christianity. The "belief in god" thing is also extrabiblical; nowhere is this commanded.

I have to rush to answer these, as I'll be leaving shortly, so I'll answer this when I get home.

Quote by: Alive 3. First you ask why finite sins should lead to infinite punishment, then you ask why murder should be forgiven by "trivial" acts?

Yes. There's such a thing as "fair". Things like murder should not be forgiven by trivial acts that do no good at reversing the behavior. Things should also not be punished infinitely. You see no middle ground? You see it a bifurcated matter? That's ridiculous, Alive.

I have to go, I'll finish this when I get back.

[Alive]

Quote by: Lullaby Have you no understanding of the Christian claim? That Jesus is not just a collection of ideas that pass down from civilations?

You titled this post "My problems with Christianity." Is your problem that you find the Christian story implausible or that you find Christian ideology somehow troubling? Because if it's the first, I can't help you, all religions are implausible. That's just not a good reason to judge them harshly. Most people have always held many implausible beliefs, including you I suspect.

Yes. There's such a thing as "fair". Things like murder should not be forgiven by trivial acts that do no good at reversing the behavior.

How do you propose that one reverse murder?

I'll just state this straight out; I'm against punishment as a whole, except as deterrence. Revenge is never justified.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Alive You titled this post "My problems with Christianity." Is your problem that you find the Christian story implausible or that you find Christian ideology somehow troubling? Because if it's the first, I can't help you, all religions are implausible. That's just not a good reason to judge them harshly. Most people have always held many implausible beliefs, including you I suspect.

Christianity. I gave no specifics, so you should assume no specifics.

I have problems with the validity and some of those problems entail moral failings.

Quote by: Alive How do you propose that one reverse murder?

No, I said reverse the behavior. Fix murderous behaviors, ect.

[freefallife]

Quote by: butterbut No God is rightous. He made us so he deserves our worship. He loves us too, so much so that he died on the cross for us.

How can it be considered a great sacrifice to die KNOWING that you'll rise from the dead?? That's like me saying that I'll jump out of a plane for your sins, then just deploying my chute. It's not such a loving sacrifice to die knowing that you were not going to STAY dead. How can that be an example of great love?!?

[butterbut]

Quote by: freefallife How can it be considered a great sacrifice to die KNOWING that you'll rise from the dead?? That's like me saying that I'll jump out of a plane for your sins, then just deploying my chute. It's not such a loving sacrifice to die knowing that you were not going to STAY dead. How can that be an example of great love?!?

Jesus still felt all the pain of his crucification. Watch the Passion. Jesus felt all of that. He could of at any moment asked for God to send his angels to rescue him but he did not. He indured the unimaginable pain and torture becuase he loves us so much. This is the ultimate showing of love. Enduring all the pain of death and torture even though at any moment he could end it all and go to his father in heaven. Thats how much he loves us!:):):):)