Reactions to tolerance and intolerance

[5010]

This morning I was thinking about the phrase "live and let live". It seems to have a self-defeating weakness. For example: if one tolerates actions that ultimately interfere with one's actions. The ideology can fall when it is not reciprocated. Then I came up with the following reactionary formulas:

1. Respect respect.
2. Disrespect disrespect.
3. Respect disrespect for disrespect.
4. Disrespect respect for disrespect.

Of course, the above require a deeper knowledge before choosing how to react. If one sees a respectful attitude, they don't know whether to respect it of disrespect it until they know what the target of said respect is. Likewise for seeing a disrespectful one.

A missing element is the "choose your battles" wisdom. I can't think of a good way to integrate that into the formulas in an uncomplicated way. Any ideas?

Have these formulas been proposed before? Do they fit within or go against any popular ideologies? Do you find them meaningful or useful or overcomplicated?

[ZNFYRH]

5010

Psychologically, people are still animals.

We have a tendency to be aggressive towards weakness.

Even in this day and age of alleged tolerance, anger management, and enlightenment, "no good deed goes unpunished."

Maintaining respect in the face of disrespect gives the appearance of weakness. It garners more disrespect towards the person being respectful.

Showing disrespect to others is, on the primal level, seen as showing strength. Others, who would ultimately rather "rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"... a fear-motivated response... will show respect to the person being disrespectful.

It's why the person who tries to ignore disrespect and show tolerance only gets an increased amount of disrespect... and why the bullies have followers.

[5010]

ZNFYRH,
Are you saying the 4 conditions should be replaced with 1: disrespect all? Or are you highlighting the importance of formula 2 and 4?

[ZNFYRH]

5010

To make sure I understand you, here's how I took each:

1. Respect respect.

You are nice, and I like that.

2. Disrespect disrespect.

You are not nice, and I don't like that.

3. Respect disrespect for disrespect.

He is not nice, you don't like it, and I like that you don't like it.

4. Disrespect respect for disrespect.

He is not nice, you like it, and I don't like that you like it.

That about right?

What I am putting forth is that:

5. Disrespect respect

You are nice, and I don't like it.

6. Respect disrespect for respect

He is nice, you don't like it, and I like that you don't like it.

I'm saying that #5 and #6 are human nature.

[5010]

Sounds like you get the essence of it and I agree that 5 and 6 come natural and can actually be successful..

1 through 4 require discipline and seem more mature and perhaps utopian to me, but without the dysfunction inherent within "respect all" as "live and let live" seems to convey.

[ZNFYRH]

I think #5 and #6 are truly anti-social and are followed by people that like social and psychological development. I include them because they represent the opposite of the more idyllic four that you presented.

#1 through #4 aren't necessarily utopian. They are four reactionary guidelines that I live by every day, and they are easy.

The trick with indifference, the antecedent to all six, is that it requires effort. We all want to do one of the six... either follow our anti-social animal nature or our nobler human nature.

#5 and #6 are easier. It's easy to prey on those you see as weak, and it's easy to be a sycophant to one who shows they are stronger.

#1 through #4 take effort. The rewards, though, have been greater in the long run because you have a stronger sense of who you are.

#5 and #6 create a type of paranoia in a person... #5 always looks for the person meaner than them... #6 is always afraid that #5 will notice them.

In the end, I think #1 through #4 are great as rules for membership, guidelines for life, and any other overlying behavioral philosophy. It's how I'm raising my children, for example.

[5010]

Quote by: ZNFYRH The trick with indifference, the antecedent to all six, is that it requires effort. We all want to do one of the six... either follow our anti-social animal nature or our nobler human nature.

That was good food for thought, and I dwelled on it quite a bit since yesterday.

We see indifference as an essential ingrediant in breaking the troll cycle. I'll define the "troll cycle" as anything that resmbles internet trolls: an entity that feeds off of disrespect.

A weakness in #1 through #4:

Troll: disrespect
Me: disrespect disrespect
Troll: disrespect disrespect of disrespect

Since this does not fit #1 through #4, the response is indifference.

This leads me to consider the following responses to #5 and #6. Consider respect as a default.

#5 animal: disrepect respect
== initial disrespect
response: disrespect disrespect

Since there is no animal response for this, they may either respond with indifference or reveal a trollish response, to which I ignore.

#6 animal: respect disrespect for respect
Since respect is the default, the above is equivalent to respect disrespect
response: disrespect respect of disrespect

Again, the animal can either be indifferent or reveal a troll, either of which the response is indifference.

What do you think?

[ZNFYRH]

"Disrespect of disrespect for disrespect" is the sycophant stance.

I associate that with #6.

I still have a certain degree of disgust for indifference. It doesn't solve anything. In physics terms, indifference is an acceleration of 0. Not giving any force in one direction or the other. Just nothing.

Quote by: 5010 What do you think?

I think that respect is only the default if you are a socially developed human. By socially developed, I mean that you look beyond yourself and consider what is best for others. That doesn't mean you have to do it, it means that you demonstrate awareness.

Some very evil people never exhibit #5 or #6. Some very benevolent people have problems with #1 through #4.

You're saying that given #5 and #6, based on the defaults of human respect, you either show disrespect for disrespect (#2) or you show disrespect for those who respect disrespect (#4).

And when you show #2 or #4, the response to you is either indifference... let's call that #7... or trollish response... we'll call that #8.

The problem is what to do in the face of #7 and #8.

When confronted with indifference, I become aggressive. I just can't stand for people not taking a stand and not taking some action of some kind.

Unfortunately, indifference usually means that the behavior will continue or escalate. For example, indifference to disrespect means the disrespect will continue or escalate.

I think (#8) Troll Response should be regarded as the default disrespect. Those who respect troll might as well be #5 and those who disrespect troll might as well be #2.

So basically, #8 = Disrespect

[5010]

I think active indifference solves the troll problem because it starves them of the control and negative attention they feed off of. Other than that, I can't think of anything functional about it.

[ZNFYRH]

True.

Indifference, as I said, takes effort.

It could then be said that responding to a troll demonstrates a lack of self-control.

[5010]

Quote by: ZNFYRH It could then be said that responding to a troll demonstrates a lack of self-control.

I partly agree. Sometimes it does. Alternatively it demonstrates ignorance of their trollish character, or ignorance of the function of indifference.