Ethics without "God"

[ShOuLdEr]

This morning my ethics professor told me bluntly during a debate in class that there can be no ethics without "God" and that any logical athiest/agnostic cannot argue against this.

I am agnostic and this offended me and I am going to write an argument against this.

Before I do so i was hoping to hear the thoughts of everyone on this forum, in the past when i've had questions i've been lead to some ideas and insights that I myself would not have considered.

I believe ethics can be based soley on social standards and laws

I found this on Ethics Without Gods

One of the first questions Atheists are asked by true believers and doubters alike is, “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?”

this is pretty much what my professor told me.


thoughts?

[SoylentGreen]

ShOuLdEr “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?”

Absolutely correct, I can do whatever I please.
But there is another thing I can do as well, and thats have a conscience, Understand empathy and know what is right and what is wrong.
The beauty of it is that i don't have to fear any supernatural or natural consequences for my actions, just simply understand that my actions have consequences.


If you go through the volconvo archives you will find this question has been raised before, and one smart person gave a good answer.
Simply ask your professor, if it wasn't written in the bible "Thou shalt not murder" would you not understand why it is wrong to murder someone?

[Zhavric]

If I were president of your university, I'd fire your professor. What a silly thing to say to a group of students?

The article from atheists.org gives a good explanation of where morality comes from, but you need to go on the offensive.

Point out that theistic morality is just as arbitrarily determined as non-theistic morality (ethics as well).

From The God Delusion:

Begin in Genesis with the well-loved story of Noah, derived from the Babylonian myth of Uta-Napisthim and known from the older mythologies of several cultures. The legend of the animals going into the ark two by two is charming, but the moral of the story of Noah is applaing. God took a dim view of humans, so he (with the exception of one family) drowned the lot of them including children and also, for good measure the rest of the (presumably blameless) animals as well.

Of course, irritated theologians will protest that we don't take the book of Genesis literally anymore. But that is my whole point. We pick and choose which bits of scripture to believe, which bits to write off as symbols or allegories. Such picking and choosing is a decision, just as much, or as little, as the atheists decision to follow this moral precept or that was a personal decision, without an absolute foundation. If one of these is 'morality flying by the seat of its pants' so is the other. p.237-238

Point out that morality and ethics change over time. Use the example of the American public's attitude towards civilian bombings. In WWII, bombing cities full of men, women and children was perfectly fine. Today, it's not.

Point out that theistic morals are absurd. What does the bible tell us about morality? Point to the story of Lot. Angels come to his house to talk to him. Men from his city show up wanting to rape the angels. Instead of telling these men where to go or asking the angels for help, Lot offers his daughters to the group of men to be gang raped. What sort of sick morality / ethics is this? Theists will struggle to glean some answer to the question, but they'll come up with their own interpretation.

The fact they come up with their own interpretation means the morality of the bible isn't absolute.

Point out how intellectually bankrupt it is to claim most theists would be sexual predators or worse if god wasn't constantly looking over their shoulder. Analogize the theist and the atheist to two children in class. The theist acts like a monster whenever the teacher looks away. The atheist behaves if the teacher is there or not there. Who is the better behaved student?

Finally (and be sure to do this) the basis of non-theist morality is the same as theistic morality (and ethics): collective (as in on a societal level) interpretations of our biological instincts. That is where everyone's morality and ethics stem from. Religion simple seeks to take credit for this.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: ShOuLdEr This morning my ethics professor told me bluntly during a debate in class that there can be no ethics without "God" and that any logical athiest/agnostic cannot argue against this.

Well, that depends on what your professor means by "without God."

I am agnostic and this offended me and I am going to write an argument against this.

And I am offended by agnostics, so what? I think you people need to make up your minds. Agree and commit, disagree and commit or just get out of the way! :)

Before I do so i was hoping to hear the thoughts of everyone on this forum, in the past when i've had questions i've been lead to some ideas and insights that I myself would not have considered. I believe ethics can be based soley on social standards and laws I found this on Ethics Without Gods

First, one needs to define "ethics." I consider it synonymous with "morality."

One of the first questions Atheists are asked by true believers and doubters alike is, “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?” this is pretty much what my professor told me.

I offer you the following from the New Testament:

"Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" - Matthew 7:9-11 -

Let me give you my take on this. Although humans are born evil, born with a sinful nature, born committing rebellion and treason against God, they are still capable of doing "good" things (though the "good" is a much lower standard of "good" than God's perfect standard of "good," hence the statements in the Bible indicating there is no human that is "good"). This capacity to do "good" stems from an inherent knowledge of right and wrong (the conscience) that seems almost instinctual - though if you examine it closely you'd see that it's very much based in self-interest. We say it's wrong to murder because we don't want to be murdered (at least normal humans don't want to be murdered). We say it's wrong to steal because we don't want others stealing from us. Of course, because humans are evil by nature, they often try to come up with excuses for violating this inherent knowledge of right and wrong. Sadly, the result is today's silly notion of moral relativity - "Just because it's right for you doesn't mean it's right for me; just because it's wrong for you doesn't mean it's wrong for me." It is this moral relativity that eventually eliminates any objective basis for law or for being ethical - it has nothing to do with atheism or the existence or non-existence of God.

[ZNFYRH]

Shoulder

First... you're in a debate class, right?

I'm willing to bet your professor was trying to provoke debate.

I'm guessing that he would be taking the position that without a concept of reward or punishment in the afterlife, people would have no motivation to act ethically or morally.

The correct counter to this is ethics and morals are relative, and that everyone acts ethically or morally.

[ShOuLdEr]

"First... you're in a debate class, right?

I'm willing to bet your professor was trying to provoke debate"

somewhat, he cut it to a halt though and kind of laughed like it was common sense that there needs to be a divine being in order to be ethical, then he gave his opinion and changed the subject and went in another direction.

I am going to force a debate though.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Chancellor "Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" - Matthew 7:9-11 - Let me give you my take on this.

I stopped reading after I realized your take doesn't read, "This is part of the dogma I've grown up with that was written at the end of the first century to help start a new religion... kinda like that era's version of Mormonism."

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Zhavric I stopped reading after I realized your take doesn't read, "This is part of the dogma I've grown up with that was written at the end of the first century to help start a new religion... kinda like that era's version of Mormonism."

But since my post wasn't directed to you, I really don't give a rat's behind whether you read any of it. But, just to piss you off, I'm going to summarize:

Ethics exist regardless of whether or not there is a God.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Chancellor I really don't give a rat's behind ... just to piss you off...

Post reported.

Ethics exist regardless of whether or not there is a God.

Do you really believe that? How can you and still be Christian?

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: ShOuLdEr This morning my ethics professor told me bluntly during a debate in class that there can be no ethics without "God" and that any logical athiest/agnostic cannot argue against this. I am agnostic and this offended me and I am going to write an argument against this. Before I do so i was hoping to hear the thoughts of everyone on this forum, in the past when i've had questions i've been lead to some ideas and insights that I myself would not have considered. I believe ethics can be based soley on social standards and laws I found this on Ethics Without Gods One of the first questions Atheists are asked by true believers and doubters alike is, “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?” this is pretty much what my professor told me. thoughts?

You are right and your professor is wrong. And high kudos to your high thinking mind to recognize it! Many college students just accept whatever viewpoints their instructors spew. Kudos! Kudos! Kudos!

Here is one point to argue: Our most basic reason for existence exists outside of religion but not outside of morals. When all is stripped away -- no buildings, no material possessions, no music -- the human race is here for no greater purpose than any other life form. We are here to ensure the survival of our species. We treat our children in a moral manner not because of religion but because of basic instincts. Basic instincts guide morality much, much, much more than religion.

Hope this helps!

[Objectivist]

Ethics can be derived without a God. Look up Rational Self-interest... or Egoism...

[Kuldeep]

Well, it is already mentioned by most the contributors that Ethics and morality can exist without God or after life. Since, it comes from the inner most of one's mind, conscence that if I want others should not harm me, I too should not harm others. But then greed, selfishness, temptations etc. are other properties of life, which forces a person to commit sins. Such acts too do exist even in the presence of conception of God and after life.

Thus, concluding ethics could exist even without God or Religion !!!

[ZNFYRH]

Of course they could.

We are all born with the primary ethic that Objectivist just specified... Egoism.

We develop that ethic and expand it to family, close friends, friends, co-workers, women, children, humans, etc... based on our environment and own personal self-interest.

Every decision is ethical. It just might not agree with the ethics of another person.

This goes back to what I wrote in the last line of post #5... we all act ethically and morally... so they naturally exist without God.

[Suburbanite]

Ethics is the fancy, less dogmatic sounding word for morals, which started as a religious thing. It doesn't mean people without religion can't ascribe a moralistic description of things, but frankly it doesn't make much sense to do so.
I am an atheist and believe ethics and morality are unnecessary concepts, like good and evil.

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: Kuldeep Well, it is already mentioned by most the contributors that Ethics and morality can exist without God or after life. Since, it comes from the inner most of one's mind, conscence that if I want others should not harm me, I too should not harm others. But then greed, selfishness, temptations etc. are other properties of life, which forces a person to commit sins. Such acts too do exist even in the presence of conception of God and after life. Thus, concluding ethics could exist even without God or Religion !!!

Okay, what are you talking about? "inner most of one's mind". First of all, is there a mind? And does the mind have an "inner most" part? Next, it is obvious you're a Christian, just because of the way you use the concepts of greed and selfishness. See, in Christian metaphysics things can be one of two things, good or evil. Its a black and white viewpoint that causes more harm than good and tends to clump victims and oppressors in together. Concepts like greed are evil. And one who is acting greedy is sinning. Sin does not exist for atheists. Morals for atheists are not based on Good vs. Evil, thats a theological perspective on morals. For an atheist, morals can involve a number of possible dichotomies, like Good vs Bad, or Helpful vs Harmful, Pleasure/Pain, Success/Failure, etc. And those moral dichotomies affect the way an atheists percieves morality.
Me, I just drop the whole thing and don't play any part in it. Believing in morals is a way of describing your own preferences and dislikes in a dogmatic theistic way.

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: Sweet Katie We treat our children in a moral manner not because of religion but because of basic instincts. Basic instincts guide morality much, much, much more than religion.

I love the dreamy world you live in. No children being born into slavery or war. Loving kind parents. A hug and kiss before being tucked into bed. However, for other less fortunate humans they can't just rely on the "basic instincts" of the people around them, religion or not.
Here is what you're actually saying: people NATURALLY, WITHOUT ANY PROVOCATION OR PRIOR LEARNING, will ascribe to your way of dividing up the world (good/bad aka morals)? Thats just retarded and antithetical to what science has taught us about nature/nurture.

[5010]

Ethics without God requires a relationship with the Godless social order that produces a Godless standard.

Perhaps the instructor is suggesting that no such social order exists other than in theory.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: ShOuLdEr Ethics without "God" This morning my ethics professor told me bluntly during a debate in class that there can be no ethics without "God" and that any logical athiest/agnostic cannot argue against this. I believe ethics can be based soley on social standards and laws I found this on Ethics Without Gods One of the first questions Atheists are asked by true believers and doubters alike is, “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?” this is pretty much what my professor told me. thoughts?

Can you provide more data on the following :
- ethics professor
Does it mean that you are a student on university, and one of the subjects is "Ethics" ?

What do you think the Law and the Social standards are based on ?

I followed that link.
Frank R. Zindler - the (alleged) author of that article - seems to present a populistic concept of life in the Universe. His "credo" :
"One of the first questions Atheists are asked by true believers and doubters alike is, “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?”
This expression carries a significant ammount of populism-filled-with claptrap, and it could be taken as insult to Mankind's intelligence.
A sort of childish approach, backed up by unsupported arguments on some subjects, presented within his article.

My thoughts :
- answer my questions, first.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Suburbanite I am an atheist and believe ethics and morality are unnecessary concepts, like good and evil.

I am unable to understand as to "why ethics and morality are unnecessary concepts, like good and evil". I think rather, ethics and morality are necessary concepts, like good and evil. However, to evaluate any action, deed or thought social fabric and relations are basically necessary.

I would like to add that religion in general are contributing to development of ethics and moral in a person to greater extent but existence of religion is not absolute requirement for that development.

Okay, what are you talking about? "inner most of one's mind". First of all, is there a mind? And does the mind have an "inner most" part?

I have used a word "Conscience" along with mind. Oh my God, I have to tell you "Is there a mind?" Without elaborating, I tell you, yes there is mind, which is the power of thinking, developing emotions and the like, behind your physical brain, which resides in the head ! I think, this mind is of two types one thinking type and the other feeling type. Thinking type calculates in view of or personal benefits or, due to greed, selfishness etc, but feeling part irrespective of thinking part is aware whether a particular action done or thought developed by a person, is good or bad. That feeling part I term as CONSCIENCE or, inner most or, core of heart or, even what you call as YOU! This YOU behind all your physical parts right up to genes and RNA, Neurons or anything else science has found or would find !!


[quote]Next, it is obvious you're a Christian, just because of the way you use the concepts of greed and selfishness.

No, I am not Christian ! Though, I am Hindu but before that I think myself as a simple rational thinking human being !!

See, in Christian metaphysics things can be one of two things, good or evil. Its a black and white viewpoint that causes more harm than good and tends to clump victims and oppressors in together. Concepts like greed are evil. And one who is acting greedy is sinning.

My point is, without the existence of any religion, Christian in particular, greed, selfishness do exist as human properties, which are the cause of existing good and bad, evil and sin etc.

Sin does not exist for atheists.

I do not know what you call sin. Probably you try to relate it to Christianity. I simple say SIN is some bad act. If you kill some body just for fun and no fault of his, I say you committed a sin...Simple !!

I firmly believe such sins do exist for atheists as well as theists alike !!!

Morals for atheists are not based on Good vs. Evil, thats a theological perspective on morals. For an atheist, morals can involve a number of possible dichotomies, like Good vs Bad, or Helpful vs Harmful, Pleasure/Pain, Success/Failure, etc. And those moral dichotomies affect the way an atheists percieves morality.

Good vs. Evil does not necessarily have theological meaning. Any action can be otherwise also evaluated either Good or Evil, forgetting about theology and religions.

Me, I just drop the whole thing and don't play any part in it. Believing in morals is a way of describing your own preferences and dislikes in a dogmatic theistic way.

You already played active part by posting your views. I may caution you that your own preferences and dislikes do have reaction in your conscience that such selected preferences and dislikes are good or bad !!! You can never escape from the that conscience reaction !!! You may not disclose to others but your inner you (conscience) is aware !!

[Dadoo]

At the expense of being redundant:

One may do ANYthing they wish, if one is willing and able to withstand the consequences of their actions. Laws are suggestions, after all.

Proscribed ethics are not true ethics.
One's own values are true ethics, yet watch them bend and change according to circumstance, especially extreme circumstances. Adherance to a proscribed set of religious/ social or cultural ethical laws can be dangerous to the very survival of it's agents.
With or without a tertiary God, the environment will dictate what is considered ethical and what is not, by each individual, respectively.
Starvation, anyone? Your professor is a fool with a soft, malleable constitution.
Be well!

Dadoo