Nazi Religion

[Athena]

Quote by: ruksak He shed himself of any Christianity. How you cannot understand this is beyond me. You want me to "prove" it? Thats laughable. Its not my job to give to an extended history lesson. Right there you expose your motivation for making such claims. Every sight you posted is an EXTREMELY biased atheist non-secular source. You speak from an Atheist anti-American stance, that is why you think Hitler is Christian. As an agnostic, I can see through the mists. He used Christianity and the church as a tool. He manipulated the people with it. If you look, you can find many many more blatant examples of Hitlers swing from apparent Christian to a Nationalist genocidal maniac. Its easy to find Christian sounding quotes from Hitler, pre-1941. When he was still establishing the church as a tool to manipulate the people. Find me some "Christian" quotes from him post 1941. They don't exist. I have long listened to this ridiculous fight between Atheist and Christians. Is he Christian.......or is he Atheist. HE WAS NEITHER!

I am not atheist. And the Christian Right supported Bush, just as Christians supported Hitler. Many Christians are in favor of supporting Israel for religious reasons, and this same group's willingness to fight Muslims draw us towards world war. This is probably the strongest reason people have for objecting to Christianity. But next to that is the Christian claim that non Christians don't have God and morals. That is so offensive.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Suburbanite Best I could find: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941 He says he'll always be catholic, so... you're not calling Hitler a liar are you!?

One of the reasons you won't find a remark of that nature is because Hitler markedly reduced the number of speeches and proclamations he made in 1941. In other words, Hitler stopped talking in public so we have far less of an idea about Hitler's personal position.

Quote by: loser So, it really doesn't matter if Hitler called himself a Christian or not nor does it matter what label we may put on him. He was, like all of us, a unique individual whose fingerprints made him one of a kind. He may have been raised a Catholic but that fact is irrelevant.

You are quite correct, his personal view is largely irrelevent; the position of the regime, party and ideology however is not and all three where overwhelmingly in favour of Christianity, to the point that a united German Christinity is a major element of the Nazi ideology.

Quote by: Jack Sparrow Thanks alot chris, good to have an expert on-board

I am not an expert, by any stretch of the imagination. My understanding of the topic comes not from my own studies of the documents, but reading of the secondry literature.

Quote by: BobbyO However, like other forms of socialism is impossible to fathom without a Christian base

The Nazi ideology was not socialist. The misnomer, "socialism" was included in the title, NSDAP, for two reasons; primarily it is a reference to the Nazi ideology of all Germans uniting, regardless of class, to form one German volk which would create a Reich that would last 1,000 years. Secondly it was a means of winning over the support of the steadily more militant working classes.

Quote by: BobbyO That Christianity was a target for liquidation by the nazis cannot be questioned.

Yes it can, because it is simply untrue. I have already explained that a united Christianity occupied one of the core planks of the Nazi policy regarding the unification of the volksgemeinschaft.

[Athena]

Quote by: loser Let's see: 1) Christians love Jesus. 2) Jesus was a Jew. 3) Therefore, Christians love Jews. 4) Hitler hated Jews. 5) Therefore (using simple logic), Hitler was not a Christian. In fact, for all of you anti-Semites out there, if you hate Jews then you are not a Christian. Of course, to be perfectly honest (as Christians always are), if you hate any people of any class or race or status for any reason or purpose, then you are not a Christian. Christians are better than everybody else...so they should act like it.

Please, Martin Luther is credited with starting the Protestant Reformation. He hated Jews. He also believed witch hunts were necessary and that God ordained some people to be wealthy and others to be servants. If everyone would pay attention to what Martin Luther believed, they would have a better understanding of what happened in Germany.

[Sinner]

Quote by: loser View Post Let's see: 1) Christians love Jesus. 2) Jesus was a Jew. 3) Therefore, Christians love Jews. 4) Hitler hated Jews. 5) Therefore (using simple logic), Hitler was not a Christian. In fact, for all of you anti-Semites out there, if you hate Jews then you are not a Christian. Of course, to be perfectly honest (as Christians always are), if you hate any people of any class or race or status for any reason or purpose, then you are not a Christian. Christians are better than everybody else...so they should act like it.

I would not usually respond, yet such an extreme case of ignorance which is not at all uncommon prompted me to.

Logic applied here is faulty. Following is the correct logical link which is taught by the Holy Scriptures as well as Holy Tradition of The Church.

1) Christians love Jesus
2) Jews rejected Jesus as messiah, had Him crucified and battle for two thousand years against His Church
3) Therefore according to one of The Church's saint fathers John Chrysostom " for he who has no limits in his love of Christ must have no limits in his battle with those who hate Him" as it is written in his book "Against jews" one can be certain who it applies to.

More evidence?

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

Canon VII of the Holy Apostles
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox with the Jews, let him be deposed.

The only "christians" who love jews are followers of numerous Judaic heresies. Which due to prevailing ignorance are refered to as Christians.

As for Hitler, his fascination with occult and astrology is compelling evidence of him being a pagan. As to his ideology it is the mirror image of judaism with its idea of inferior races. Substitute arian for jew and you will never know a difference between a rabbi and a nazi.

[J. Askiloupos]

I sincerely doubt that Hitler and the Reich subscribed to any particular religion- like their miltitary and domestic policy, their beliefs, if anything official existed, were a mix of anything he/they believed would give them an advantage over his/their opponents. Searching for occult artifacts, appealing to traditionalist Christianity, and other religious manuevers by Der Fuhrer were simply the equivalent of a psuedo-spiritual power grab. Just look at his political policies for comparison. He mislead, covered up, and outright lied when it suited him. FInd me a religion that principles such as those could possibly belong to.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Luke 6:27-36 27 "But I say to you who listen: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If anyone hits you on the cheek, offer the other also. And if anyone takes away your coat, don't hold back your shirt either. 30 Give to everyone who asks from you, and from one who takes away your things, don't ask for them back. 31 Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them. 32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do [what is] good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do [what is] good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

Christianity contains both good and evil, so you cant infer a conclusion about a minority subset onto the whole population, that would be putting Jesus and Hitler in the same sorting pile. The contradictions in the bible spawn believers in opposites, you can only categorise them together by name (Christians), certainly not moral alignment

[J. Askiloupos]

Jack, I just read the passage of Scripture you posted as a quote- kindly point out the evil content of that excerpt...

[grandpa]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Indeed he did, just read mein Kampf. however, others testify to his pro-Christian sentiments when he was in private, individuals such as Speer.

The Bible and Mein Kampf both read like "Apocalyptic" world views, as well. One need only glimpse into either to conclude that.

Grandpa h.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos I sincerely doubt that Hitler and the Reich subscribed to any particular religion- like their miltitary and domestic policy, their beliefs, if anything official existed, were a mix of anything he/they believed would give them an advantage over his/their opponents. Searching for occult artifacts, appealing to traditionalist Christianity, and other religious manuevers by Der Fuhrer were simply the equivalent of a psuedo-spiritual power grab. Just look at his political policies for comparison. He mislead, covered up, and outright lied when it suited him. FInd me a religion that principles such as those could possibly belong to.

I agree.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos I sincerely doubt that Hitler and the Reich subscribed to any particular religion- like their miltitary and domestic policy, their beliefs, if anything official existed, were a mix of anything he/they believed would give them an advantage over his/their opponents. Searching for occult artifacts, appealing to traditionalist Christianity, and other religious manuevers by Der Fuhrer were simply the equivalent of a psuedo-spiritual power grab. Just look at his political policies for comparison. He mislead, covered up, and outright lied when it suited him. FInd me a religion that principles such as those could possibly belong to.

Well your doubts are misplaced; I have already outlined the facts of the matter.

[Zhavric]

People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .

...

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism

Mein Kampf is full of quotes of Hitler telling the reader he's doing what he's doing because of god.

What's clear is that, to the German public, Hitler was a Christian and the things Nazi's were doing were (allegedly) for god.

[J. Askiloupos]

Well your doubts are misplaced; I have already outlined the facts of the matter.

What facts have you laid out that are relevant to my analysis of the situation? From someone who is not...

an expert by any stretch of the imagination

..that's quite the statement.

[BobbyO]

Quote by: Chris the Chees The Nazi ideology was not socialist. The misnomer, "socialism" was included in the title, NSDAP, for two reasons; primarily it is a reference to the Nazi ideology of all Germans uniting, regardless of class, to form one German volk which would create a Reich that would last 1,000 years. Secondly it was a means of winning over the support of the steadily more militant working classes. Yes it can, because it is simply untrue. I have already explained that a united Christianity occupied one of the core planks of the Nazi policy regarding the unification of the volksgemeinschaft.

1. True, the term "National Socialist German Workers Party" was an expression of its memebers desires to unite all Germans into a single German state. A socialist state. I have never understood the argument that the effort was a plot to "trick" the workers into thinking the nazis were genuine socialists. Saying so suggests workers were sniveling venal swines unable to make a decsion as to their own interests (of course, when they voted for non-nazi socialists its generally seen as their voting in their interests. The argument is really nothing more than a political partisan argument).

2. And indeed they sought to "unite" the catholic and Lutheran churches (and the smaller churches as well) into one "Christian" faith which would support and defend he ideology of nazism. In doing so, this destroys those churches, and thus Christianity.

[Athena]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos I sincerely doubt that Hitler and the Reich subscribed to any particular religion- like their miltitary and domestic policy, their beliefs, if anything official existed, were a mix of anything he/they believed would give them an advantage over his/their opponents. Searching for occult artifacts, appealing to traditionalist Christianity, and other religious manuevers by Der Fuhrer were simply the equivalent of a psuedo-spiritual power grab. Just look at his political policies for comparison. He mislead, covered up, and outright lied when it suited him. FInd me a religion that principles such as those could possibly belong to.

You should read the post. The Nazis did try to control religion, but as you said, this was a power grab.

[Athena]

This looks like a comprehensive explanation of the socialistic being hijacked into Hitlers agenda. In another article, wikiepedia explains the Social Democratic Party was the oldest political party. Bismarck had to deal with the Social Democratic Party and it was responsible for Germany being the first nation to have a national pension plan and workers compensation. Ironically, social programs that made Germany very strong, and were later picked up by other modern nations, but they were blamed for hurting Germany's economy as liberals are blamed in the US today. When this blaming begins, in Germany and the US, domestic budgets are slashed and money is poured into military spending, as was done in the US when Reagan and Bush took office.

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Nazism or National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), refers primarily to the totalitarian ideology and practices of the Nazi Party (National Socialist German Workers' Party, German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP) under Adolf Hitler. It also refers to the policies adopted by the government of Germany from 1933 to 1945, a period in German history known as Nazi Germany or the "Third Reich".[1] On January 5, 1919, the party was founded as the German Workers' Party (DAP) by Anton Drexler along with six other members.[2][3] Hitler, a corporal, was sent to investigate the party by German intelligence and was invited to join after impressing them with his speaking ability after getting into an argument with party members. Hitler later accepted the invitation and joined the party in September 1919,[3][4] and he became propaganda boss. The party was renamed the National Socialist German Workers' Party on April 1, 1920, against Hitler's choice of Social Revolutionary Party.[5][6] Hitler ousted Drexler and became the party leader on July 29, 1921.[6][3] Nazism was not a precise, theoretically grounded ideology, or a monolithic movement, but rather a (mainly German) combination of various ideologies and groups, centered around anger at the Treaty of Versailles and what was considered to have been a Jewish/Communist conspiracy to humiliate Germany at the end of the First World War. It was not rooted in socialism but can be considered conservative in nature. It therefore consisted of a loose collection of positions focused on those held to blame for Germany's defeat and weakness: anti-parliamentarism, ethnic nationalism, racism, collectivism,[7] eugenics, antisemitism, opposition to economic and political liberalism,[8] a racially-defined and conspiratorial view of finance capitalism,[9] and anti-communism. As Nazism became dominant in Germany, especially after 1933, it was defined in practice as whatever was decreed by the Nazi Party and in particular by the Führer, Adolf Hitler

The Social Democratic Party of Germany (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands — SPD) is Germany's oldest political party and its largest in terms of membership. After World War II, under the leadership of Kurt Schumacher, the SPD reestablished itself as an ideological party, representing the interests of the working class and the trade unions. The party's program, which espoused Marxist principles, called for the nationalization of major industries and state planning. Today the SPD advocates the modernization of the economy to meet the demands of globalization, but it also stresses the need to address the social needs of workers and society's disadvantaged.

[J. Askiloupos]

You should read the post

I did. If I had not, I would not have responded.

[Chris the Chees]

What facts have you laid out that are relevant to my analysis of the situation?

The fact that a united Volk, both religiously and ideologically, was key to the tenets of German National Socialism; as opposed to your thesis that it was simply an example of typical Nazi opportunism.

Must I be a mathematician to spot that 2+2 does not equal 5; not being an expert on the subject does not mean that one cannot be relatively well read and able to spot a misconception.

A socialist state.

Hardly, like Mussolini's Italy, the Third Reich leaned towards fascist corporativism.

Saying so suggests workers were sniveling venal swines unable to make a decsion as to their own interests

Again hardly, it is sugegsting that the Nazi's attempted to appear to be a party that had workers interests in mind and were a legitimate option for the German workers. The same can be seen when it comes to Mosley, Mussolini, etc.

In doing so, this destroys those churches, and thus Christianity.

That does nto make any sense, as the Nazi's saught to replace the churches not abolish them. Christianity was obviously to be preserved.

[J. Askiloupos]

The fact that a united Volk, both religiously and ideologically, was key to the tenets of German National Socialism; as opposed to your thesis that it was simply an example of typical Nazi opportunism.

I certainly don't disagree with the fact that a religously united Volk was vital to the Nazi cause. I simply disagree that you could, in fact, call the Reich a Christian nation. It WAS Nazi opportunism that drove the creation of their psuedo-Christian principle. The movers and shakers, at least, were no true followers of Christ's teachings, as their actions clearly showed.

[Chris the Chees]

It WAS Nazi opportunism that drove the creation of their psuedo-Christian principle.

Most Nazi's, especially in its formative years, were hard rightwing protestant nationalists, so it is not a case that the Nazi's simply adopted the principals as part of their typical opportunism; it was there from the start.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Most Nazi's, especially in its formative years, were hard rightwing protestant nationalists, so it is not a case that the Nazi's simply adopted the principals as part of their typical opportunism; it was there from the start.

Really, any political party that tries to turn the world into a prison is violating some basic socialist ideals, as is the idea of a "National Socialist." Socialism is markedly against nationalism, or at least is supposed to be.

Grandpa h.