A better world

[HelioPrime]

Yet another thread :rolleyes:

Since I don't want to be called out for dragging another thread off topic I'll start this one. This is an opinion thread, you can of course use events both recent and past to back up your ideas.

So If religion (any, not limited to christianity) was removed from the world, would it be a better place? Would it have been better had at some point in the past all ideals of religion been removed?

-So one how would society be better/worse?

-How do you get rid of religion anyhow, without violating the rights of people?


I'll start with I believe the whole idea is BS. Religion will always be crafted as a way to explain the unknown. Not everyone will be happy just taking the world as it is, with no myth or anything beyond death. Faith in some form or another will always spring up. And mostly even without religion, people still are left with plenty of reasons to kill eachother.

Example: Without christianity and Islam there wouldn't be a reason to have the Crusades and the wars for the Holy Land.

Yet without religion the crusades could still have occured by leaders sending their armies to contend over land, or trade routes.

[Thanatos]

We could do without western monotheism but lets not destroy all the religions. In all honesty, some people are just too thick for secular humanist philosophy and are better off with a simplified rulebook. I like Buddhism. Its possible to screw it up and go gas subways in Japan, but it takes more effort on the part of the moron.

[Technosoul]

They did ban religion for the most part in the USSR and in China it is not strongly advocated by the government.

I do not see where banning religion did much to improve those countries.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Technosoul They did ban religion for the most part in the USSR and in China it is not strongly advocated by the government. I do not see where banning religion did much to improve those countries.

I see your point here but we must consider a few things first. People of the USSR were "forced" to give up their "hope" and "faith" and like with any society, when people are forced to do something they don't like, they will find ways to do it anyway. While it was unlawful to practice religion, they were still able to worship in secret. Think of it like this.... Pot has been illegal in the US since the early 20's It's banned in almost every state. Yet, millions of otherwise law abiding citizens still find ways of getting it and smoking it.

If you want to get rid of something like religion, I think the only effective way of doing this is to lead by example and educate people. afterall, isn't this how it all got started to begin with? I realize that over the centuries, religion forced its way through the lands by shear violence or threat of violence as well. But this only lead to varying sects of religion and new religions to sprout as well.

As far as the world being a better place without religion? Thats a tough debate. Some say that homosexuallity would be safe and not frowned upon, but I wonder how true that is considering many people are just plain homophobic. I would argue that there wouldn't be any theological objection to it, so I guess that's a plus. I do beleive women would have had more say in the way the world was run had they been given equal treatment through out the ages, this may or may not have lead to less wars over land and resources. My biggest fear would be the masses thinking that since there is no afterlife to contend with, they could do what they want. On the other hand, without that back up, they may realize there is only this life and they might try to make the best of it. Afterall, most people do have a conscience and we still have societal laws to keep people in THIS life in check. What we wouldn't see is people dying for their faith or killing others in the names of their god(s). We may still see people blowing up abortion clinics just because they disagree with the practice itself, not because of religion. However there wouldn't be any theological justification to deny women the rights to their own body.

John Lennon said it well...... IMAGINE..

Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one

The only part of this song I disagree with is trying to imagine no possessions..... excuse me, but I like my toys

[Jack]

If you want to get rid of something like religion, I think the only effective way of doing this is to lead by example and educate people.

I agree. You can't change a person's mind for them, they have to change it themselves. Through illumination and education, we can encourage people to think for themselves and decide if magical, superstitious belief is beneficial or detrimental to their lives. By example we can show them that there are alternatives to living by faith in supernatural entities. I know of no one who has ever changed their attitude toward something by being told to do so.

Would the world be a better place? Perhaps, perhaps not. I would argue it's not all that great under the current influence of religion. But humans are humans regardless of their philosophical beliefs, and many of society's ills are caused by very human weaknesses. Acting from those weaknesses (greed, hate, lust for power...) doesn't seem to be well regulated by religious belief.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: HelioPrime -So one how would society be better/worse?

It would be far harder for Arabs and similar groups to be motivated to committ violence. Why blow yourself up if there aren't 72 virgins waiting for you? Why fight in a war if god isn't on your side?

In America, people wouldn't be nearly as uptight about ridiculous wedge issues like gay marriage. Dislike of gays is largely spearheaded by Christianity.

People would have less divisions between them.

It would end the repression of women in Muslim nations and elsewhere.

Getting rid of religion would stop certain people from shunning science.

There wouldn't be churches to scam people out of hard earned money. People would be able to give to charity without believing in nonsense.

-How do you get rid of religion anyhow, without violating the rights of people?

Allow children to grow up without becoming indoctrinated:

Children really ought not be spoken of as a Catholic child or a Muslim child. They ought to be allowed to grow until they're old enough to decide for themselves what their beliefs about the cosmos are. But ... the fact [is] that we do treat [children] that way, and ... parents seem to be regarded as having a unique right to impose their religious beliefs on their child; whereas, nobody thinks they're going to impose their beliefs about -- I don't know -- why the dinosaurs went extinct, or something of that sort. But religion is different. And I do think that you can explain an awful lot about religion if you assume that children start out gullible. Anything that is told to them with sufficient force -- particularly if it's reinforced by some kind of threat, like, "If you don't believe this, you'll go to hell when you die" -- then it is going to get passed on to the next generation. Above all, "You must believe this, and when you grow up, you must teach your children the same thing." That, of course, is precisely how religions get promoted, how they do get passed on from generation to generation.

I'll start with I believe the whole idea is BS. Religion will always be crafted as a way to explain the unknown.

Nope. That''s what we have science for. Religion has proven to be utterly worthless in explaining the natural world whereas science has allowed us to unlock inumerable secrets.

Not everyone will be happy just taking the world as it is, with no myth or anything beyond death.

You're speaking as though religion offers some sort of viable explanation. It doesn't. It offers a happy lie which some people would be tempted by... in the same way a junkie may be tempted to take a hit of something bad for him/her.

Faith in some form or another will always spring up.

So does pedophelia. It doesn't mean we should tolerate it or (worse) encourage it.

And mostly even without religion, people still are left with plenty of reasons to kill eachother.

With or without religion there will be bad people doing bad things and good people doing good things... but nothing motivates good people to do bad things like religion.

Example: Without christianity and Islam there wouldn't be a reason to have the Crusades and the wars for the Holy Land.

This contradicts what you just said and I don't agree with it. The conflict in the middle east is about land. As Lex Luthor said in Superman Returns, "It's the only thing they're not making any more of." The Israelis have it. The Arabs want it. They tried to take it back. The Israelis end up with more land. Granted, without religion, the land has less value, but if you speak to Palistinians it goes beyond the religious value of the land.

Let's say you're a Palistinian who has a grandfather who was a store owner in what's now Israel (what was Palistine). Likely, you'd want not only your store back, but the rights to whatever is on the land now. So, if someone put up a big shopping mall there, you'd be looking to own that shopping mall because it's "your" land. That's how they think.

The point you need to come away is religion is what motivates many soldiers to fight in wars. Lose the religions and you lose a lot of the soldiers.

[Suburbanite]

People really needed religion back then, its obsolete now, we have computers and playstations and microwaves, but back then when all you had was the plague.... jesus probably helped.

[5010]

What is "world"? The world population of humans? The geological world? The world of living creatures? My perceived world?

My answer is different depending on which world.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: HelioPrime Yet another thread :rolleyes: Since I don't want to be called out for dragging another thread off topic I'll start this one. This is an opinion thread, you can of course use events both recent and past to back up your ideas. So If religion (any, not limited to christianity) was removed from the world, would it be a better place? Would it have been better had at some point in the past all ideals of religion been removed? -So one how would society be better/worse? -How do you get rid of religion anyhow, without violating the rights of people? I'll start with I believe the whole idea is BS. Religion will always be crafted as a way to explain the unknown. Not everyone will be happy just taking the world as it is, with no myth or anything beyond death. Faith in some form or another will always spring up. And mostly even without religion, people still are left with plenty of reasons to kill eachother. Example: Without christianity and Islam there wouldn't be a reason to have the Crusades and the wars for the Holy Land. Yet without religion the crusades could still have occured by leaders sending their armies to contend over land, or trade routes.

Didn't China and the old Soviet Union try to do away with religion for the most part?

[HelioPrime]

With or without religion there will be bad people doing bad things and good people doing good things... but nothing motivates good people to do bad things like religion.


If a "good" person is acting evil but believes their actions are good are they still "good"?

If a women snaps and murders her children, then uses "jesus told me so" as an insanity defence is that an example of religion killing kids?

If she still killed the kids and did it just because she snapped does it make the crime any less of a crime?


Between a few communist leaders as well as south american ones many many people have been murdered in the name of the state or authority.

[Athena]

I will go with this thought from "A Basic Call to Consciousness" by the Six Nations which include the Iroquios, and is the same as thinking found in the Greek and Roman classics:

"The Peacemaker came to the people with a message that human beings should cease abusing one another. He stated that humans are capable or reason, that through that power of reason all men desire peace, that the people organize to ensure peace, and that it is necessary that the people organize to ensure that peace will be possible among the people who walk on the earth."

Reason brings us to attempt to understand how things work. I think we are better off without the supersitition of a Zeus like God and Satan, angels and demons.

What can we do to increase reason and diminish the harm of superstition? Educated the people. We must counteract the falsehoods of religion, which go beyond superstition and preventing the development of scientific explanations, to teaching prejudice against those who are not members of the faith. Teaching people to feel superior to and to fear those who are different, and that others do not have God and morals, is a terrible evil, that only education can correct. Atheist are not helping at all when they insist on making an issue if God exist or not. They support the belief of Christians with their arguements.

[butterbut]

I don't see how "superstition" is harmful. Many religous do great acts of charity becuase of their faith. Faith has changed thier lives, whereas before they were selfish burdens on society, becuase they have found religion they do many great acts of charity. Even if you beleive that their reasoning is wrong you cannot argue that the results of there actions is a bad thing.

Relgion has been abused by many people but I beleive that these people would be evil no matter what, with or without religion.

[Athena]

Quote by: Chancellor Didn't China and the old Soviet Union try to do away with religion for the most part?

Communism was a gallant attempt to live the way Jesus told us to live with each other, and a bit paradoxical that it did this while at the same time repressing religion.

While blending natural resources, with capitalism and Christianity, seemed to equal God's blessings, this belief, will once again be questioned, when our bellies are empty. Perhaps nothing causes humans to question the goodness of God more, than empty bellies. In the past the strength of the church was superstitious fear of God, not the blessings of God. It will be interesting to see what happens when we go from believing the proof of God, and our acceptence by God, is our abundance, to the loss of homes and businesses and hunger, and drives us to question what we believe to true of our blessings. Will the masses once again accept such misfortune is God punishing us of our sins, and like Job will we maintain our faith, or will we doubt this God who sends birds to feed people? I think it will depend on the skill of the spell weavers.

[ZNFYRH]

All things considered, what's religion?

A set of rules with no tangible reward.

In fact, the reward is based on the one true mystery of life.

If there were no religions, there would still be moral systems.

One person trying to force their moral system on another person is all religious wars boil down to.

[Athena]

Quote by: butterbut I don't see how "superstition" is harmful. Many religous do great acts of charity becuase of their faith. Faith has changed thier lives, whereas before they were selfish burdens on society, becuase they have found religion they do many great acts of charity. Even if you beleive that their reasoning is wrong you cannot argue that the results of there actions is a bad thing. Relgion has been abused by many people but I beleive that these people would be evil no matter what, with or without religion.

Athiest have done great acts of charity because of their faith in humanity, and the Christian denial of this is offensive. On the other hand, when our leader declares a war, non Christians do not believe he is doing the will of God, and that is a vital difference.

Education for good moral judgment does not depend on religion. There is not one social problem than can not dimished with this education. And Christianity standing the way of such education is a big problem!

Do you believe the invasion of Mongols and the last two world wars were the will of God? What makes things happen, God or human will? If things are the result of human will, shouldn't we educate for good moral judgment? This is not relying on holy books, so what is it? Where will you look for the answer to that question?

[Kuldeep]

Use common sense to select good from religious beliefs for the society to make the present world better to live in !

Not all Preachings in religions are are bad for the world. Need of the hour is to select proper (rational ones) and neglect the improper (irrational ones) !!!