The Original Meaning of "Salvation"

[Autolykos]

After the advent of agriculture, the sun became mankind's most revered object. It brought light and warmth to the world. Without it, the crops would not grow, and therefore mankind would not survive. Before perishing, we would be cast into terror and darkness -- Hell on Earth.

Now we all know about the changing of the seasons due to the combined effects of Earth's tilted axis and its orbit around the sun. For about half the year, the days grow shorter; for the other half, the days grow longer. As the sun appears to move through the sky during the day, this means the sun's daily path will change over time, and that it has a minimum and maximum extent. We know these as the solstices.

Ancient people knew about them as well, but they were ignorant of Earth's true relationship with the sun. To them, it stood to reason that the sun literally moved through the sky each day. Since the sun moved, it stood to reason that it was somehow alive. From there it was a simple step to personify or anthropomorphize the sun as a deity.

The winter solstice was especially important to the ancients. Why? Well, to them it appeared that the sun grew weaker as it approached the winter solstice. For three days, it seems to stay at its lowest point. Then its path starts to rise again. At this point, the winter solstice had come and gone. Days would get longer again, bringing more light and warmth to the world.

My contention is this: Ancient people, not knowing that what they observed were simply interactions between impersonal forces, could not have had the same level of certainty that we have today regarding these events. In other words, they were likely fearful that the sun would not come back "from the dead" this time around. Since mankind cannot survive without the sun, for it to return would mean that mankind is saved from certain doom. Hence, the return of the sun would lead to mankind's salvation -- for another year.

- Rob

[phoenix_fire]

Thats really, really tenuous.

[Autolykos]

Would you like to expand upon that one-liner? :)

- Rob

[Technosoul]

I agree with your post.

Thanks to the salvation ritutals we have not had another Ice Age which is evidence that the theory worked.

[Jack]

I would say this scenario is plausible. We know humans offered plant and animal sacrifices to appease what they perceived as angry gods. It's reasonable that food offerings might have also been intended to bring the gods back to health. The gods have long been personified by some humans, allowed to have human emotions and human weaknesses. Some gods were even thought to be able to die and come back to life. Obviously an anthropomorphic god could also fall ill and be restored to health.

[Jack]

Would you like to expand upon that one-liner?

You know, p_f, as wise member has said in another thread,

Impertinent one-liners like that are against the rules. And there's a reason for it. Nothing but unsubstantiated opinion that does not contribute to the topic at hand in any way.

[SoylentGreen]

There is lots of evidence to show that ancient civilizations had star charts that accurately plotted astral movement and were used to predict lunar and solar cycles.
There knowledge of celestial mechanics was just as good as ours.
Being able to predict events such as eclipses would have taken the mystique out of it for those with the knowledge.
The real difference is we have a better knowledge of the cause of the movements.

Certainly among the lower caste, uneducated there was a strong belief in the gods. There the use of sacrifice and rituals to appease and gain salvation would have been common and for them, real.
But the high caste, educated ruling body of those civilizations were probably a lot more sceptical about the existence of gods.
Those were the ones that used murder, manipulation, intrigue and politics to gain and hold onto power and authority.
They would have well understood that gods were just tools used to control the masses.
The rituals for them would have been more for maintaining the status quo than salvation.
Unfortunately in that respect not much has changed about civilization.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Autolykos Would you like to expand upon that one-liner? :) - Rob

Well, actually I wasn't being snide. I had to leave for class and I didn't know where to start. I'm assuming that you're using this to refer to the idea of salvation in Christianity. There are several reasons why this wouldn't be plausible in that context. For one thing, Jesus' death and resurrection take place in the spring. For another, the number 3 crops up often and any relation would be, I think, suspect. For instance, 3 is also the number of persons in the Trinity. Was there a day for each? I highly doubt it. For another, by the time of Christ, civilization was well enough along that it knew that the sun was coming back. I think that most people would have figured that out pretty quick. The only precedent that I can think of to compare positively with your assertion is the ritual of the Egyptians for a favorable flooding season. But that falls apart when you consider that the Egyptians knew sometimes the rains didn't come, and sometimes it flooded way too much. They had good reason to worry about it.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood You know, p_f, as wise member has said in another thread,

Impertinent? Nah. Just a prelude. In context, that advice was given in response to someone just randomly spouting rhetoric that wasn't necessarily directly related to the subject.

*blushes* You think I'm wise? Aww shucks.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Well, actually I wasn't being snide. I had to leave for class and I didn't know where to start.

I didn't think you were being snide, but I was hoping for more of a critique than that.

I'm assuming that you're using this to refer to the idea of salvation in Christianity.

Not just. The idea of salvation in Christianity is really nothing new. It was pretty much borrowed from contemporary religions' ideas of salvation.

There are several reasons why this wouldn't be plausible in that context. For one thing, Jesus' death and resurrection take place in the spring.

The spring equinox is when the sun officially "overcomes" darkness, because after that point the days will be longer than the nights.

For another, the number 3 crops up often and any relation would be, I think, suspect. For instance, 3 is also the number of persons in the Trinity. Was there a day for each? I highly doubt it.

The concept of the Trinity has no relation to the 3-day period before the sun "rises from the dead". The latter seems firmly rooted in astronomy/astrology, while the former appears to come from the concept of the "solar trinity" found in most contemporary religions:

"solar trinity" - Google Search

For another, by the time of Christ, civilization was well enough along that it knew that the sun was coming back. I think that most people would have figured that out pretty quick. The only precedent that I can think of to compare positively with your assertion is the ritual of the Egyptians for a favorable flooding season. But that falls apart when you consider that the Egyptians knew sometimes the rains didn't come, and sometimes it flooded way too much. They had good reason to worry about it.

I think part of the key to understanding the ancient concept of salvation is uncertainty. Again, ancient people were, by and large, not aware that the forces involved were impersonal. Forces which seem to be driven by personal wills appear less certain (for all intents and purposes, non-deterministic) than forces which seem otherwise. Therefore, I think it's plausible that, while ancient people realized that the sun had always "risen from the dead" before, there was a chance that it may not happen this time around, due to X (e.g. people's sinfulness).

- Rob

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Autolykos I didn't think you were being snide, but I was hoping for more of a critique than that. Not just. The idea of salvation in Christianity is really nothing new. It was pretty much borrowed from contemporary religions' ideas of salvation. The spring equinox is when the sun officially "overcomes" darkness, because after that point the days will be longer than the nights. The concept of the Trinity has no relation to the 3-day period before the sun "rises from the dead". The latter seems firmly rooted in astronomy/astrology, while the former appears to come from the concept of the "solar trinity" found in most contemporary religions: "solar trinity" - Google Search I think part of the key to understanding the ancient concept of salvation is uncertainty. Again, ancient people were, by and large, not aware that the forces involved were impersonal. Forces which seem to be driven by personal wills appear less certain (for all intents and purposes, non-deterministic) than forces which seem otherwise. Therefore, I think it's plausible that, while ancient people realized that the sun had always "risen from the dead" before, there was a chance that it may not happen this time around, due to X (e.g. people's sinfulness). - Rob

Except Jesus' death and resurrection didn't happen during the equinox. The Bible puts them at the Festival of Unleavened Bread. If it were for that reason, you'd think they'd match up.

Strong law of small numbers: "There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them." or, as Charlie Eppes puts it, "Monkeys and typewriters...[cites Strong law] one will always find meaning where one seeks it". You could bind every aspect of reality by small numbers, but since they are so frequent, most of those associations would be coincidental.

I think in the time of Jesus, there wasn't a whole lot of uncertainty. After all, Judea was a Roman protectorate and many Jews by then had been raised with Greek understanding and science. They were reasonably advanced enough not to make that kind of superstitious mistake.