Atheist Musings for the Fundamentalist Christian "Soul"

[WWFStern]

Discovered this at the "My Case Against God" weblog....


The following seven questions/challenges/musings are intended for fundamentalist Christians. Liberal believers may not recognize themselves in this address.


1. The historical evidence for biblical truth-claims is thin, to be sure. I know of no secular historian who reports on Mary undergoing parthenogenesis, for example. Because this is the case, it seems to me that Christians ought to present some credible secular historical evidence to support their most cherished folklore. It is in this spirit I request the names and relevant works of at least two secular record-keepers—who lived at the same time as Jesus—who specifically mention Jesus as well as at least one of his alleged miracles (for example, bringing dead-long-enough-to-stink Lazarus back to life). Despite persistent requests, I have yet to be presented with any qualifying names.

2. Biblical-literalist Christians generally reject evolutionary theory, in spite of its near-universal acceptance in the scientific community. Evolution teaches us that various orders of animal roamed the planet (and, indeed, went extinct) before other orders of animal even came to be. Creationists argue that all orders of animal were created at about the same time; that is, humans and dinosaurs co-existed. As luck would have it, Young Earth Creationists have a way to falsify Darwinian evolution: the geologic strata. It is in this spirit I request at least two examples of horse fossils found in the Paleozoic strata (among trilobites, crinoids and other such life forms). Alternatively, I, along with the late J.B.S. Haldane, request at least two examples of fossil rabbits found in the Precambrian.

3. According to fundamentalist Christians, the Bible is the word of god. That is, the Bible was either written by the deity or directly inspired by him. Because the Christian god conception incorporates omniscience, a fundamentalist Christian must conclude the Bible boasts omniscient authorship. However, I think the evidence for such a conclusion is lacking. It is in this spirit I request two examples of biblical passages that provide brand new information about the natural order, which previously had been unavailable to humans living during biblical times. I shall relate an example: If the Bible had mentioned the true age and size of our universe, that would qualify as brand new information about the natural order, because first century commoners did not already possess this information. If the Bible lacks brand new information about the natural order, its claims of omniscient authorship are groundless.

4. The Yahweh-worshiping crowd’s delusion truly would have been convincing and persuasive if Yahweh-worship had appeared independently in several different cultures, rather than spreading when one population actively attempts (forcibly or not) to convert another. Consider the following example: The atheist would have had a difficult-to-defend position if, when Christian European explorers arrived in North America, they had discovered a significant percentage of Native Americans was already worshiping Yahweh. The odds of that deity (with his fantastical nature, distinct characteristics and unique demands) coincidentally being invented by two different populations are vanishingly small. If the Clovis people had worshiped Yahweh, it would have been good evidence that the deity revealed himself separately to at least two populations. It is in this spirit I request at least one well-evidenced example of Yahweh-worship being discovered in a geographically isolated population, which never previously had been exposed to a Yahweh-worshiper. [Editor’s Note: Credit goes to frequent commenter Tommy, who planted the seed from which this idea sprang.]

5. Our universe is a breathtakingly vast space. There are about 130 billion galaxies, each containing as many as 400 billion stars. Nobody is certain of how many planets are in our universe. A reasonable (albeit very rough) estimate is about 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, which is reached by multiplying 130 billion (galaxies), 400 billion (stars per galaxy) and one—representing planets (because an as-yet-unknown percentage of stars has planets, whilst some lack them). When one examines reality through the lens of cosmology, it seems laughable to think this entire creation is for us. After all, our planet is an infinitesimal speck within our own galaxy—let alone our entire universe! The corners of the cosmos hospitable to humans are exceedingly few. One would think that, if our universe was designed with us in mind, we would be able to explore it a bit, rather than being trapped on a metaphorical sidewalk square within an endless Metropolis. It is in this spirit I ask why, given the enormity of our universe, fundamentalist Christians think god crafted the cosmos for us.

6. Our universe is incredibly old. The best scientific estimates indicate that our universe is 13.7 billion years old. Allow me to quote Victor J. Stenger, emeritus professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Hawaii and adjunct professor of philosophy at the University of Colorado: Referencing the deity, he says, “Instead of six days, he took nine billion years to make Earth, another billion years or so to make life and then another four billion years to make humanity. Humans have walked on Earth for less than one-hundredth of one percent of Earth’s history.” This being the case, why should humans conclude everything was made for us? I shall put a finer point on this: Why would any god, who created a vast cosmos existent for nearly 14 billion years, containing roughly 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets, care about what human primates do whilst naked?

7. Homo sapiens sapiens have existed for tens of thousands of years, or more. The earliest inklings of the Abrahamic monotheism came several millennia ago—probably about four thousand years. Bearing this in mind, why did god wait tens of thousands of years to introduce hominids to the One True Religion? Assuming that the fundamentalist Christian ideology is sound, hominids living 25,000 years ago would have benefited from knowing about Yahweh and his regulations regarding behavior. Lacking god’s revelation, these primitives probably descended into all manner of silly superstition and false belief. If humans truly are god’s children and everything was created for us, why wait until 2000 BCE to roll out the correct religion?


I really liked this, and wanted to share. :)

[ItsDarts]

Number 4 is my favorite and I would add to it a Number 8, If according to Fundies, there is a God, and hence a Satan, why does Satan still exist? According to the Christian theology, God is a Tri-omni being, with Omnipotence as one of those. One would logically assume that this god could and would destroy Satan (not just kick him out of his house). If he Could, why hasn't he, if he can't, he's not omnipotent. If he could but won't, he's not omnibenevolent, a benevolent god WOULD destroy Satan if he COULD. If he's not all benevolent or all powerfull, why call him god?

[ItsDarts]

The silence of this thread is telling. Can't even the moderate christians come up with reasonable arguments against these questions?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: ItsDarts The silence of this thread is telling. Can't even the moderate christians come up with reasonable arguments against these questions?

Because its pointless?

Science can't prove the christians wrong, all it can do is make leaps of assumptions by spewing facts and subjective opinions.

Such as a universe with untold amounts of planets. Why would god care?

Well you'd have to ask god if you see him. Thats not even a scientific question. The chrisitan could ask in responce why dont atheist believe when the world is full of miracles? The atheist would respond show me fact. So I respond show me fact. How does untold planets mean anything beyond there fact there is untold amounts of planets?

On the edit I understand many people think this forum brings the website down. Why the need to bring up zhavric type debates by posting a spew of thought questions then demanding an answer and taking silence as a win.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: HelioPrime Because its pointless?

Nice "Non-argument..... NEXT!

Science can't prove the christians wrong, all it can do is make leaps of assumptions by spewing facts and subjective opinions.

Logic alone can prove the christian wrong. My question # 8 does a good job of that. The problem of Evil (and suffereing) also dispells the christian god. When the Christian god is attributed with three Omni's and this god can't meet the tests that would require this god to exist "as described" then it becomes a contradiction and the christian god is dismissed, "As described".

Such as a universe with untold amounts of planets. Why would god care?

Why wouldn't he?

Well you'd have to ask god if you see him. Thats not even a scientific question. The chrisitan could ask in responce why dont atheist believe when the world is full of miracles? The atheist would respond show me fact. So I respond show me fact. How does untold planets mean anything beyond there fact there is untold amounts of planets?

Science can explain why there are untold amounts of planets (and suns and galaxies), Christians are the ones that can't, but please, don't ask me to do your home work for you. Read up on Cosmology and physics and particularly, particle and astro physics.

On the edit I understand many people think this forum brings the website down. Why the need to bring up zhavric type debates by posting a spew of thought questions then demanding an answer and taking silence as a win.

Nobody is taking the silence as a win, all I said was it was telling. This particular thread isn't a Z type debate. No one has made the positive claim that gods do not exist, only the inference that there is no logical reason to believe this god does exist.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: ItsDarts Nice "Non-argument..... NEXT! Logic alone can prove the christian wrong. My question # 8 does a good job of that. The problem of Evil (and suffereing) also dispells the christian god. When the Christian god is attributed with three Omni's and this god can't meet the tests that would require this god to exist "as described" then it becomes a contradiction and the christian god is dismissed, "As described".

Evil is mans failing in the christian bible. God doesn't destroy satan for reasons unknown. The bible does mention a heaven and hell so one can deduct that god would not want to destroy satan. Hence the reason for keeping a hell.

Quote by: ItsDarts Science can explain why there are untold amounts of planets (and suns and galaxies), Christians are the ones that can't, but please, don't ask me to do your home work for you. Read up on Cosmology and physics and particularly, particle and astro physics.

Once again, So? This is just like the 38,000 branches of chrisitanity is evidence that the religion is false. The bible says god made the heavens and by that the book would mean space and everything contained in space. From that point a more liberal chrisitan could think they god created the heavens with the big bang, bringing a universe into being. The more fundamentalist chrisitan who believes god reall just created the planets out of will power X many thousand years ago is clearly wrong because logic disproves this. The more liberal view isn't approchable.

Quote by: ItsDarts Nobody is taking the silence as a win, all I said was it was telling. This particular thread isn't a Z type debate. No one has made the positive claim that gods do not exist, only the inference that there is no logical reason to believe this god does exist.

You asked if more modern chrisitans could come up with reasons to debate the points in the OP. I came up with the point that number 5 and 6 are meaningless because they are opinion questions. Instead of debating fact your debating the level of a supposed gods care for his creation, by using the sheer numbers of planets to suggest the opinion of why would god create so many stars and planets.

The other reason behind the "telling" lack of responce may be this forum is somewhat lacking on devout christians perhaps? I only see one active one, who as far as I know is a busy student who may not have time to respond.

[WWFStern]

RE: The planets and age of the universe issue...

The god of the Bible (TgOTB) is endowed by its tome with very specific characteristics and a determined nature. According to the Bible, humans are very important to god. After all, we are made in god's image, and are "his children." Perhaps there might be a god somewhere to whom humanity is unimportant; however, such a deity is not TgOTB.

Cosmology poses a real problem to Christianity, bearing the above in mind.

Humans inhabit a single planet, of the 50,000 billion billion planets likely to exist. The Earth is accepted by scientists to be around 4.5 billion years old, but the universe itself has existed nearly 14 billion years. Our species only came into existence around 100,000 years ago, meaning we have been around less than one-hundredth of one percent of Earth's history. Bearing all this in mind, if humans really were so important to god, why wait 13.7 billion years to evolve us? Moreover, why evolve us in a microscopic speck of cosmos?

It really boils down to this: Why would god care about redeeming, and forgiving the sins of, an insignificant speck of carbon?

To me, it is rather like thinking the entire Earth was created for a blade of grass in Toledo. It simply does not wash.

[triad]

Well considering I am atheist.. all I have to say is if there was a god, biblical or deism, he/she/it is an evil being. Why leave an entire species at the brink of war 24/7 over religious conflicts? If they really intended to "create" humans, why didn't they give us enough information to not kill each other over disagreements over religion? (by us I am reffering to the world population in general)

I say religion is the primitive answer to our questions while science is the concrete. We may have left questions unanswered, but if we have only existed for 100,000 years we're off to a pretty damn good start on the 'figuring out' part.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: HelioPrime Evil is mans failing in the christian bible. God doesn't destroy satan for reasons unknown.

How convenient and a poor argument at that. If he won't or can't (for reasons known or unknown), this still leaves him either Omnimalevolent and or non-potent, then why call him god?

The bible does mention a heaven and hell so one can deduct that god would not want to destroy satanHence the reason for keeping a hell.

How can you deduct this? Is Satan necessary for hell to exist? If so, feel free to back that up with scripture.

Once again, So? This is just like the 38,000 branches of chrisitanity is evidence that the religion is false.

Red Herring...

The bible says god made the heavens and by that the book would mean space and everything contained in space. From that point a more liberal chrisitan could think they god created the heavens with the big bang, bringing a universe into being. The more fundamentalist chrisitan who believes god reall just created the planets out of will power X many thousand years ago is clearly wrong because logic disproves this. The more liberal view isn't approchable.

This god is already unapproachable and non-existant due to Question #8

You asked if more modern chrisitans could come up with reasons to debate the points in the OP. I came up with the point that number 5 and 6 are meaningless because they are opinion questions. Instead of debating fact your debating the level of a supposed gods care for his creation, by using the sheer numbers of planets to suggest the opinion of why would god create so many stars and planets.

I'll give you that 5 & 6 are weak, yet somehow I still find the questions asked compelling.

The other reason behind the "telling" lack of responce may be this forum is somewhat lacking on devout christians perhaps? I only see one active one, who as far as I know is a busy student who may not have time to respond.

are either of them Phoenix or Fangram? What about you? You seem to argue for their side quite often.

[Jack]

PatrickHenry is also devout, he just prefers not to debate religion as much as some. There are plenty of religious forums full of like-minded, non-confrontational posters. This is one of the few where the two sides are represented and the issues dividing them are discussed.

[butterbut]

I've given up on arguing about faith. Nobody is going to convicne anybody about anything.

What if you told someone you loved them and they said, "prove it"? You can't.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: WWFStern To me, it is rather like thinking the entire Earth was created for a blade of grass in Toledo. It simply does not wash.

Because you are human. Christians hold god is clearly above human. The christian god would not have to view time as a human. He could have no feelings of impatience, or even the love and care the bible describes.

An emotionless god could have created the universe and the laws that bind space, then let it unfold. The fact it took 14 billion years is meaningless to a deity that doesn't view progression of time like us.

The failing of your point is you assume god would have to think like a human, and act like one also.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: ItsDarts How convenient and a poor argument at that. If he won't or can't (for reasons known or unknown), this still leaves him either Omnimalevolent and or non-potent, then why call him god? How can you deduct this? Is Satan necessary for hell to exist? If so, feel free to back that up with scripture.

No satan is not necessary. The bible just quotes him as existing. As an atheist you use logic to assume things. Example since the FSM doesn't exist then you assume anything else fantasy could not exist.

The same applies here. Since hell is mentioned it is safe to assume in the christian view that god would allow the presence of satan for whatever odd reason.

Omnipotence means to have unlimited power. The description does not ential how you use that power. If the chrisitan god allowed satan to exist then there would be a reason. And none of use would be able to determine it.

Quote by: ItsDarts Red Herring... This god is already unapproachable and non-existant due to Question #8

Your using assumptions again. Assuming that if god existed he would have a need/desire to destroy satan.

Quote by: ItsDarts are either of them Phoenix or Fangram? What about you? You seem to argue for their side quite often.

Sorry but I find this one funny. Proof you don't read or have a poor memory unless it serves you somehow.

If you read previous threads and posts you could determine my stance on faith, as well as PF's.

I argue here because I don't have to believe in god to point out the shortcomings or bad assumptions made by arguements.

[WWFStern]

Quote by: HelioPrime Because you are human. Christians hold god is clearly above human. The christian god would not have to view time as a human. He could have no feelings of impatience, or even the love and care the bible describes. An emotionless god could have created the universe and the laws that bind space, then let it unfold. The fact it took 14 billion years is meaningless to a deity that doesn't view progression of time like us. The failing of your point is you assume god would have to think like a human, and act like one also.

All the arguments in the OP assume TgOTB. That deity has emotions. A deity lacking emotions is not TgOTB.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: WWFStern All the arguments in the OP assume TgOTB. That deity has emotions. A deity lacking emotions is not TgOTB.

Biblical inerrancy = belief god is perfect in every way, and the bible is undisputed and correct. The god of many fundamentalist is not an emotional god because an emotional god is not perfect.

The points from the article are targeted at "fundamentalist" without defining what kind the author means. If people with a more liberal view are not supposed to recognize themselves then the author is admiting this own arguement is full of holes and assumptions.

Hes not disproving god, hes disproving the belief that the bible is 100% factual.

[WWFStern]

Quote by: HelioPrime Biblical inerrancy = belief god is perfect in every way, and the bible is undisputed and correct. The god of many fundamentalist is not an emotional god because an emotional god is not perfect. The points from the article are targeted at "fundamentalist" without defining what kind the author means. If people with a more liberal view are not supposed to recognize themselves then the author is admiting this own arguement is full of holes and assumptions. Hes not disproving god, hes disproving the belief that the bible is 100% factual.

TgOTB is explicitly emotional. In the Old Testament, there are passages in which Yahweh is angry, jealous, vengeful, etc. Those are emotional states. If god possesses no emotions, then those passages and stories are false. If those passages are false, the Bible contains falsehoods.

In my mind, a fundamentalist believes the Bible has no falsehoods.

[Century 25]

Belief in a deity and religion are inculcated into the young minds at the earliest possible age. That is when our formative years make us (basically for life).. what we are.. and what we believe in.

It is all about control, full stop.

I chose not to be hustled by the tripe-spewing syndicate of "god".. lol, it would be funny except it is the worst scourge visited upon humanity.. worse than all the diseases and cataclysms (acts of uno-who)..

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: HelioPrime No satan is not necessary. The bible just quotes him as existing. As an atheist you use logic to assume things. Example since the FSM doesn't exist then you assume anything else fantasy could not exist.

Do you even KNOW what Debate is? You don't use logic to assume anything. Logic has certain rules that need to be followed in order to come to sound conclusions.

The same applies here. Since hell is mentioned it is safe to assume in the christian view that god would allow the presence of satan for whatever odd reason.

Then using LOGIC to come to a SOUND conclusion, He is not ALL Loving and therefore doesn't exist as described in the "infalable book" called the bible. If you don't get rid of the main evil dude, who is described as tempting man kind into doing all sorts of nasty stuff, how can you be all loving?

Omnipotence means to have unlimited power. The description does not ential how you use that power. If the chrisitan god allowed satan to exist then there would be a reason. And none of use would be able to determine it.

Again, logic dictates that he would not be all loving (Omnibenevolent).

Your using assumptions again. Assuming that if god existed he would have a need/desire to destroy satan.

Come back when you learn what logic is.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: ItsDarts Then using LOGIC to come to a SOUND conclusion, He is not ALL Loving and therefore doesn't exist as described in the "infalable book" called the bible. If you don't get rid of the main evil dude, who is described as tempting man kind into doing all sorts of nasty stuff, how can you be all loving?

The the fundamentalist viewpoint is wrong.

Again, omnipotent only states being all powerful. The meaning of omnipotence is not limited to strictly unimaginable power.

God is able to do anything that God chooses to do - another definition.

god doesn't have to destroy satan. You just assume he would to fit your definition of omipotence.

And yes, most fundamentalist believe there are no falsehoods. Not all since fundamental faiths have splintered many times, many of them reforming.

The following seven questions/challenges/musings are intended for fundamentalist Christians. Liberal believers may not recognize themselves in this address. - This says the author does no want move liberal chrisitans to answer the questions. Clearly there questions are to attack the fundamentalist view, not the chrisitan faith in general.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: HelioPrime Science can't prove the christians wrong, all it can do is make leaps of assumptions by spewing facts and subjective opinions.

Not this idiocy again...

It's time we discussed this double standard in it's own thread.