Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Lullaby Chainer · Oct 13, 2007, 11:16 am

I don't feel like re-coding my argument into forum code so here's the link..

Myspace.com Blogs:atheismmyspace MySpace Blog

HelioPrime · Oct 13, 2007, 11:25 am

conclusion: one must logically assume that the biblesGod is either a moron, evil, or does not exist.

Makes sense. In the christian view if man is created to try to walk in gods good graces why would be create the homosexual. Yet the church doesn't see it that way. Many would accept that god made the homo but look at it as a higher test of the homosexual to like a sex free life as further dedication to god.

In that case it would come down to your personal belief on religion and your sex life.

Even gay men in the cloth don't believe god hates them, but holds them to a higher call perhaps to abstain from relations. Unfortunatly men hate them, and revoke them from their office when they find them:
Vatican suspends gay cleric

Chimera · Oct 13, 2007, 11:37 am

Christians would make the argument that homosexuality wasn't created by God but by man.....So I fail to see the correlation here.....Plus God doesn't hate anyone...

Rooster · Oct 13, 2007, 11:46 am

Whether or not one believes in God is really irrelevant. I think its a matter of forcing your opinions onto someone else.

I beleive in God. I do not attend Church because organized religion teaches that any beleif other than theirs is wrong and I simply cannot agree with that. The fundamental passage in the bible is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, so that whoever beleives in Him shall have everlasting life"

That does not sound like hate to me. I dont beleive that people choose to be homosexuals and I beleive that God does not hate them.

HelioPrime · Oct 13, 2007, 11:51 am

Currently, bodies and doctrines of the Abrahamic religions generally view homosexuality negatively, from quietly discouraging homosexual activity to explicitly forbidding same-sex sexual practices among adherents and actively opposing social acceptance of homosexuality. Some teach that homosexual orientation itself is sinful, while most assert that only homosexual behavior is a sin.

Most but not all christians understand homosexuality as a born train, and not a disease despite movies like Saved showing otherwise.

**Jack** · Oct 13, 2007, 11:53 am

"A jealous and avenging God is the LORD, an avenger is the LORD, and angry; The LORD brings vengeance on his adversaries, and lays up wrath for his enemies;" [Nahum 1:2]

"Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no god besides me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue. "To the heavens I raise my hand and swear: As surely as I live forever, I will sharpen my flashing sword, and my hand shall lay hold of my quiver. "With vengeance I will repay my foes and requite those who hate me." " [Dt. 32:39-41]

"Honesty is lacking, and the man who turns from evil is despoiled. The LORD saw this, and was aggrieved that right did not exist. He saw that there was no one, and was appalled that there was none to intervene; So his own arm brought about the victory, and his justice lent him its support. He put on justice as his breastplate, salvation, as the helmet on his head; He clothed himself with garments of vengeance, wrapped himself in a mantle of zeal." [Is. 59:15-17]

"You are not a god who delights in evil; no wicked person finds refuge with you; the arrogant cannot stand before you. You [God] hate all who do evil;" [Ps. 5:4-5]

"Into your hands I commend my spirit; you will redeem me, LORD, faithful God. You hate those who serve worthless idols, but I trust in the LORD." [Ps. 31:5-6]

"Your throne, O God, stands forever; your royal scepter is a scepter for justice. You love justice and hate wrongdoing; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellow kings. [Ps. 45:6-7]

"For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel, And covering one's garment with injustice, says the LORD of hosts; You must then safeguard life that is your own, and not break faith." [Mal. 2:16]

"Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You {Jesus} loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions"; [Heb. 1:8-9]

"But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I {Jesus} also hate. " ' "Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God." ' [Rv. 2:6-7]

"As long as the Israelites did not sin in the sight of their God, they prospered, for their God, who hates wickedness, was with them. But when they deviated from the way he prescribed for them, they were ground down steadily, more and more, by frequent wars, and finally taken as captives into foreign lands. The temple of their God was razed to the ground, and their cities were occupied by their enemies." [Judith 5:17-18]

"Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice." [Sir.{AKA: Ecclesiasticus} 15:13-14]

The Christian/Jewish god doesn't hate?
If god created man, then anything man creates must also be credited to god.

shrike · Oct 13, 2007, 12:01 pm

My argument is based on assuming that Bible God does exist as it OP of this thread.
God made many things that he don't like or allowed them to happen but human created with free will so he can choose. Because without bad things good things has no meaning.

Rooster · Oct 13, 2007, 12:10 pm

The Bible is so full of contradictions that it is hard to live by it. You find many passages supporting hate and I can find the same amount supporting love.

Jack_Sparrow · Oct 13, 2007, 12:19 pm

Quote:

Quote by: shrike

Because without bad things good things has no meaning.

God could have -by act of will- defined that good things ONLY have meaning while there are NO bad things

HelioPrime · Oct 13, 2007, 12:42 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

The Christian/Jewish god doesn't hate?
If god created man, then anything man creates must also be credited to god.

In the christian world god created man with free will. Man's choices cannot be directly blamed on their god.

Jack_Sparrow · Oct 13, 2007, 12:47 pm

Quote:

Quote by: HelioPrime

In the christian world god created man with free will. Man's choices cannot be directly blamed on their god.

They also believe he is all knowing, and as the lives of his creations fall in the category 'all', he is completely to blame. Another contradiction.

Its like a mad scientist making an android that he knows will kill thousands of men, you cannot say the mad scientist is innocent

HelioPrime · Oct 13, 2007, 12:56 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow

They also believe he is all knowing, and as the lives of his creations fall in the category 'all', he is completely to blame. Another contradiction.

Its like a mad scientist making an android that he knows will kill thousands of men, you cannot say the mad scientist is innocent

If he was all knowing why was there a reason to have a burning bush and 10 commandments?

The bible was written by men, so "all knowing" could have different meaning or not be toe correct word. Much of the bible would point to a god contrary to the all knowing catagory.All knowing, but once again free will, something if you believe the myth even the angels did not have.

But back to the OP. Writtings from the bible don't provide any backup that god would have to be either mad or none existant to create homosexuals. Homosexuality was likely looked down upon in ancient times regardless of belief, and so writters of the bible could have added passages to support that stance.

HelioPrime · Oct 13, 2007, 12:58 pm

Edit: Ops damn failing connections.

Cephus · Oct 13, 2007, 01:23 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Chimera

Christians would make the argument that homosexuality wasn't created by God but by man.....So I fail to see the correlation here.....Plus God doesn't hate anyone...

But since God made everything, including man, God must have created homosexuality, especially seeing that we've demonstrated a genetic and biological link for it.

So Christians are either idiotic to make that argument or they don't understand the argument they are making.

**Jack** · Oct 13, 2007, 01:24 pm

Quote:

Man's choices cannot be directly blamed on their god.

Don't theists believe all that is was created by god? Then man cannot choose anything which was not created by god, since according to theists everything was created by him. Evil is god's creation as much as good, if you believe that god is the sole source of all that is.

Chimera · Oct 13, 2007, 01:59 pm

Quote:

The Christian/Jewish god doesn't hate?
If god created man, then anything man creates must also be credited to god.

I said God doesn't hate ANYONE and you give me a million examples citing "God hates evil" Evil is not a person...Good job. If I have a son, and that son murders you, should I go to jail? Of course not. Blaming our sins on our creator is foolish.

Quote:

They also believe he is all knowing, and as the lives of his creations fall in the category 'all', he is completely to blame. Another contradiction.

He is also believed to be all-powerful, easily meaning he has the power to suspend his omniscience for the purpose of free will correct?

Quote:

But since God made everything, including man, God must have created homosexuality, especially seeing that we've demonstrated a genetic and biological link for it.

A quick google search has the same scientist in the blogs first example debunking his own theory [url="http://www.nerve.com/Regulars/ScienceOfSex/09-05-00//URL]

The same is easily done for most al of the examples used. I'm sorry but there is no biological and especially not genetic link to homosexuality. God created man with the ability to do whatever he wanted....If I shoot you in the face, I SHOT YOU IN THE FACE....God didn't.

Quote:

Evil is god's creation as much as good, if you believe that god is the sole source of all that is.

No again, evil is the creation of those who betrayed God....No one elses.

HelioPrime · Oct 14, 2007, 12:11 am

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

Don't theists believe all that is was created by god? Then man cannot choose anything which was not created by god, since according to theists everything was created by him. Evil is god's creation as much as good, if you believe that god is the sole source of all that is.

The ability to choose to reject god or not is part of christian belief:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." Matthew 15:19

If god created man in his image then why would there be any mention of heaven or hell, or any stories of fallen kings? The bible itself points with stories that man is capable of wicked or sinful actions and thoughts.

According to tradition god doesn't create evil. Man allows himself to fall and choose to act evil. Snakes and apples sort of things. The apple tree wasn't evil, but the choice of Eve to listen to the snake is where the evil is.

Another example: In christian view god put humans and metals on the earth. Neither are evil, because evil is a word to describe an action or status. But man can choose to weld the metel into a weapon and spear another man. An evil deed. But you would blame the man for choosing to commit evil, not blame god for putting both man and metal on the earth.

Objectivist · Oct 14, 2007, 12:34 am

Christianity is a booby trap. All good is credited to God, and all evil is credited to man. Can man be good? No, because all good is because of God.

If God creates the world and everything in it (humans included), God creates the environment. If God creates humans, God creates the genetics. Homosexuality is a combination of genetic and environmental factors... two factors a person has no control over. Homosexuality is not a choice. How then can a homosexual choose to be 'evil'?

Night · Oct 14, 2007, 03:01 am

Well, the God of Christianity supposedly doesn't hate homosexuals, he just hates it when they have homosexual sex.

Chimera · Oct 14, 2007, 04:00 am

Quote:

Quote by: Objectivist

Christianity is a booby trap. All good is credited to God, and all evil is credited to man. Can man be good? No, because all good is because of God.

If God creates the world and everything in it (humans included), God creates the environment. If God creates humans, God creates the genetics. Homosexuality is a combination of genetic and environmental factors... two factors a person has no control over. Homosexuality is not a choice. How then can a homosexual choose to be 'evil'?

I'm sorry where do you get the idea that homosexuality is genetic?

Oct 13, 2007, 11:16 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Lullaby Chainer Posts: 3,014	A God Who Hates What He Makes: Homosexuals I don't feel like re-coding my argument into forum code so here's the link.. Myspace.com Blogs:atheismmyspace MySpace Blog *Powerful.. magical.. e-e-e-eevil..*

Oct 13, 2007, 11:25 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
HelioPrime Hucking Fuskies Location: Conn Posts: 2,391	conclusion: one must logically assume that the biblesGod is either a moron, evil, or does not exist. Makes sense. In the christian view if man is created to try to walk in gods good graces why would be create the homosexual. Yet the church doesn't see it that way. Many would accept that god made the homo but look at it as a higher test of the homosexual to like a sex free life as further dedication to god. In that case it would come down to your personal belief on religion and your sex life. Even gay men in the cloth don't believe god hates them, but holds them to a higher call perhaps to abstain from relations. Unfortunatly men hate them, and revoke them from their office when they find them: Vatican suspends gay cleric What do you say to an atheist who sneezes? Yourdeadthatsit! - Dane Cook

Oct 13, 2007, 11:46 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Rooster Grace Posts: 80	Whether or not one believes in God is really irrelevant. I think its a matter of forcing your opinions onto someone else. I beleive in God. I do not attend Church because organized religion teaches that any beleif other than theirs is wrong and I simply cannot agree with that. The fundamental passage in the bible is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, so that whoever beleives in Him shall have everlasting life" That does not sound like hate to me. I dont beleive that people choose to be homosexuals and I beleive that God does not hate them. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant

Oct 13, 2007, 11:51 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
HelioPrime Hucking Fuskies Location: Conn Posts: 2,391	Currently, bodies and doctrines of the Abrahamic religions generally view homosexuality negatively, from quietly discouraging homosexual activity to explicitly forbidding same-sex sexual practices among adherents and actively opposing social acceptance of homosexuality. Some teach that homosexual orientation itself is sinful, while most assert that only homosexual behavior is a sin. Most but not all christians understand homosexuality as a born train, and not a disease despite movies like Saved showing otherwise. What do you say to an atheist who sneezes? Yourdeadthatsit! - Dane Cook

Oct 13, 2007, 11:53 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,378	"A jealous and avenging God is the LORD, an avenger is the LORD, and angry; The LORD brings vengeance on his adversaries, and lays up wrath for his enemies;" [Nahum 1:2] "Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no god besides me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue. "To the heavens I raise my hand and swear: As surely as I live forever, I will sharpen my flashing sword, and my hand shall lay hold of my quiver. "With vengeance I will repay my foes and requite those who hate me." " [Dt. 32:39-41] "Honesty is lacking, and the man who turns from evil is despoiled. The LORD saw this, and was aggrieved that right did not exist. He saw that there was no one, and was appalled that there was none to intervene; So his own arm brought about the victory, and his justice lent him its support. He put on justice as his breastplate, salvation, as the helmet on his head; He clothed himself with garments of vengeance, wrapped himself in a mantle of zeal." [Is. 59:15-17] "You are not a god who delights in evil; no wicked person finds refuge with you; the arrogant cannot stand before you. You [God] hate all who do evil;" [Ps. 5:4-5] "Into your hands I commend my spirit; you will redeem me, LORD, faithful God. You hate those who serve worthless idols, but I trust in the LORD." [Ps. 31:5-6] "Your throne, O God, stands forever; your royal scepter is a scepter for justice. You love justice and hate wrongdoing; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellow kings. [Ps. 45:6-7] "For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel, And covering one's garment with injustice, says the LORD of hosts; You must then safeguard life that is your own, and not break faith." [Mal. 2:16] "Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You {Jesus} loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions"; [Heb. 1:8-9] "But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I {Jesus} also hate. " ' "Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God." ' [Rv. 2:6-7] "As long as the Israelites did not sin in the sight of their God, they prospered, for their God, who hates wickedness, was with them. But when they deviated from the way he prescribed for them, they were ground down steadily, more and more, by frequent wars, and finally taken as captives into foreign lands. The temple of their God was razed to the ground, and their cities were occupied by their enemies." [Judith 5:17-18] "Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice." [Sir.{AKA: Ecclesiasticus} 15:13-14] The Christian/Jewish god doesn't hate? If god created man, then anything man creates must also be credited to god. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Oct 13, 2007, 11:37 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Chimera Molten Ash Posts: 103	Christians would make the argument that homosexuality wasn't created by God but by man.....So I fail to see the correlation here.....Plus God doesn't hate anyone...

Oct 13, 2007, 12:01 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
shrike Volcanic Erupter Location: Israel Posts: 2,737	My argument is based on assuming that Bible God does exist as it OP of this thread. God made many things that he don't like or allowed them to happen but human created with free will so he can choose. Because without bad things good things has no meaning.

Oct 13, 2007, 12:10 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Rooster Grace Posts: 80	The Bible is so full of contradictions that it is hard to live by it. You find many passages supporting hate and I can find the same amount supporting love. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant

Oct 13, 2007, 12:58 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
HelioPrime Hucking Fuskies Location: Conn Posts: 2,391	Edit: Ops damn failing connections. What do you say to an atheist who sneezes? Yourdeadthatsit! - Dane Cook

Oct 14, 2007, 12:34 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Objectivist Immovable Location: Montana Posts: 200	Christianity is a booby trap. All good is credited to God, and all evil is credited to man. Can man be good? No, because all good is because of God. If God creates the world and everything in it (humans included), God creates the environment. If God creates humans, God creates the genetics. Homosexuality is a combination of genetic and environmental factors... two factors a person has no control over. Homosexuality is not a choice. How then can a homosexual choose to be 'evil'? "Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and of greatness should be waiting for us in our graves. . .or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth." From Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

Oct 14, 2007, 03:01 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Night Flaming Homosexual Location: Las Vegas, NV (USA) Posts: 219	Well, the God of Christianity supposedly doesn't hate homosexuals, he just hates it when they have homosexual sex.