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Section 8 · Oct 21, 2003, 10:51 am

Well, I write this in deep regret. For those of you who don't know, I'm Jewish. Or I should say was Jewish. I lost my faith in God. God is dead. I don't know what religion I am. I guess that makes me augnostic, or divisionist. I guess I'll be looking into divisionism or buddhism, maybe aethiesm. Paganism looked a little too weird, but if there are any pagans on this board please post. I don't know if I'm making a mistake, but I'm pretty sure that God doesn't exist. It just got too dogmatic, placing blind faith in a supreme being.

Section 8 · Oct 21, 2003, 10:55 am

I can describe some of it with a quote:

"On the contrary, while Gabriel is blowing his horn, I will be playing the tuba."

Waychel · Oct 21, 2003, 11:36 am

I thought you already gave up Judaism?

I hope you find some other religion or spirituality that better fits you to replace it, if that is what you are looking for.

G. Adams · Oct 21, 2003, 12:08 pm

Well I can't speak as a pagan, but someone who has adopted many of its ideas into my lifestyle. As well as having a wiccan for a sister.

Paganism is bound by one code only

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
and if it harm none, do what thou wilt<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Now paganism is a broad term to cover pantheistic, nature and individual focused religions/spiritualities. The more developed religions within paganism include Wicca (this is witchcraft, female focus BUT there are many men within it. by female focus i mean i respect for mother nature, and all things that follow from that), Druism and Asatru (norse gods). There are many others out there, and many who reject any such titles as wiccan or druid, preferring simply pagan, and choosing what works for them.

The fundamental basis for most pagan spiritualism is a threefold worship. There is 'Spirit'. Spirit is simply the energy of the universe that allows it to exist, and all things are contingent upon it. Spirit is neutral. Spirit is also linked to, for want of a better word, karma. The law of karma in paganism is whatever you do returns back to you three times over.
Then there are the two central gods, which are male and female. Under paganism there are many gods, but an overall pagan acceptance is that these multiple gods and goddesses are simply aspects of these two overarching divine male and females. The divine female is a reflection of birth, creation, compassion and other similar forms. The divine male is a reflection of passion, energy creativity etc Neither female nor male aspect is more important than the other, even if some branches of paganism do focus more on one, usually the female.

Paganism is highly individualistic, in terms of relationship to a divine. There is never, (unless someone is on an ego trip and wants to manipulate people), an intermediary between you and the divine. Part of this individualism comes from the karmic forces, you take responsibility for your own actions. It is also anti-authoritarian, rejecting proper structures, fitting well with your political beliefs in anarchist-socialism.

There are however groups with a loose structure. Covens, groups of witches, or Groves sometimes for druids exist. Here we have some time of leadership in that the most experienced members lead ceremonies, rituals or spells.

Which leads us onto the next main point of most pagans, spells. Now this is usually what gets the unenlightened aggroed about paganism, because they think your asking daemons for help and as such, which your not. Spells are for pagans what preying is to Christians. You are asking your deity for help in something, in pagans case you are trying to bend Spirit in your favour through the divine female or males. You cannot ask for something that is bad, because you are breaking the central and only tenent of pagans, and anything you do try like that is going to end back at you three times. And....

The way spells work is through belief and force of will. You have to believe that, for example, that your friend will get through an illness and that she WILL get through it. On top of that, if your working with other people, they have to believe it too, or you will be working against their own personal energy. This is why negative spells are considered not to work, as the person your trying to affect will not want it themselves, so you can't affect them.

Again similar to buddhism is the belief in reincarnation among some pagans. its not universal, many other believe in going to a heaven, Elysium or Vallhalla. There is very rarely any hell to speak of, this world is bad enough and many consider reincarnation to be like purgatory, one giant groundhogs day, keep going till you've had a decent life.

However, I must say that there is a 'dark side', or potential to magick (the K is always put there to demonstrate that it is real magic rather than illusion). It may or may not be real, but although I do in small ways use positive spells myself (i don't do with all the tools and accompaniments that most pagans do, those things are for focusing, and I never ask for things that are so important that I need all those bits), I will never go near the darker stuff just in case. kind of like in usual suspects when the guy says he doesn't believe in god, but he's afraid of him. Look into Aleister Crowley or John Dee for famous people who stepped into that stuff, and John Dees stuff is pretty terrifying if any of it is true.

Anyway, back to the good stuff. Paganism, as I have said before, is a nature based spirituality. This is why all the festivals, rituals and spells are focused on the natural cycle. The festivals are based upon the four seasons, Beltaine (aspect of fire, april/may time, celebrating early summer), Lughnassa (harvest time, late summer festival, i think its water aspect, also known as Lammas), Samhain (halloween time, feast of the dead, time of remembrance, this one is earth I THINK) and Imbolc (jan/feb time, rebirth, this could be wind but I just read something about it being related to Brigid, who was is represented by water so it all confusing me now).

The above is linked to, and this where I was getting my elemental aspects from, the representations of North, East, South, West. The North is Earth, where the dead reside, its character is humility. East is wind, its mental character is intelligence and cunning. South is fire, representing creativity and passion. West is water, representing wisdom. You can see how North and South demonstrate that these beliefs come from the northern hemisphere.

Erm, thats as much as I feel like doing off the top of my head. If there is anything specific you want please ask.

Much of my knowledge comes from reading my sisters books on wicca and witchcraft, of which the best author was Silver Ravenwolf. Oh, while I mention that, the names are often like that to represent a personal rebirth into the pagan religion, and are reflections of a persons likes and dislikes, or how they feel they are best represented through that name.

Anyway, Silver has a website at

www.silverravenwolf.com

I don't know how good it is because I havn't looked at it, but her books were really good.

I'm not going to say much for Buddhism as you already know plenty about it, but I would reccomend reading Sogyal Rinpoche "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying". Its what got me started into studying buddhism, and is the best I've read so far.

I went through a similar phase of confusion over religion and direction in life, until I decided I wasn't going to define myself so narrowly, which is why I just leave it at personal spiritualist, and follow my conscience.

TwoShanks · Oct 21, 2003, 12:13 pm

why do you need a religion at all?

fedfem · Oct 21, 2003, 12:14 pm

Why look for a label? I suggest Unitarian Universalist -UU church. It is a community of people of different faiths as well as agnostics and atheists.

http://www.uua.org/newcomers/index.html

fedfem · Oct 21, 2003, 12:23 pm

G. Adams

Most Pagans I know would reject the overall definition you gave. Many Pagans(Old ways) are atheists.

While Wiccans and such call themselves Pagan, Pagans do not feel Wicca or any of the fluffy new age religions are Pagan.

Like all religions--trying to define or organize leads to divisions.

zkreso · Oct 21, 2003, 01:06 pm

if you ask me, all religion is the same, but in a different package.

Waychel · Oct 21, 2003, 01:34 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (zkreso,)
if you ask me, all religion is the same, but in a different package.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Same. =P

Chances are if you give up on one religion, you will inevitably give up on all others.

If you really need religion or spirituality in your life, its best just to make your own. Just come to your own conclusions about God(s) and life.

The Devil · Oct 21, 2003, 02:43 pm

Agnosticism is the only "correct" religion, considering anything unknown is simply left unknown. That's what I call myself... an agnostic. I guess I've sort of made anarchy a part of my religion as well though... that's the philosophical backbone for me.

G. Adams · Oct 21, 2003, 03:11 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,)
G. Adams

Most Pagans I know would reject the overall definition you gave. Many Pagans(Old ways) are atheists.

While Wiccans and such call themselves Pagan, Pagans do not feel Wicca or any of the fluffy new age religions are Pagan.

Like all religions--trying to define or organize leads to divisions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Wicca isn't New Age, its about 150 years old, and the women who reintroduced it (apologies I forgot her name) was working on a basis older than that.

Modern Druism is about 200 years old. Apart from little bits that have been taken from Caesers writings and the few other primary sources on the original druids, it is all new. Modern Druids have simply integrated Wiccan practice, celtic mythology and those little bits together to create there own spirituality.

A lot of the Asatru stuff is reliable, since norse worship only ended in Greenland (or Iceland, I forget which) only ended around 500-600 years ago.

In the New Age movement many people looked into these religions because they reflected the values of the new age. But none of the above ones are themselves new age.

Paganism is, as I stated an overarching title for any religion or spirituality that came before the big monotheistic religions. My own experience of pagans, people that fall under that umbrella, have been Wiccan or Druid. So I can only relate what I know of them.

However of all pagans I've never met an atheist one. Surely they would just class themselves as atheists?

G. Adams · Oct 21, 2003, 03:12 pm

Ahh crap, well I did mention that bit originally, must have cut it when I was rewriting. It should have been mentioned first off.

fedfem · Oct 21, 2003, 04:40 pm

Gerald Gardner is considered the father and founder of Wicca.

http://www.bcholmes.org/wicca/gardner.html

G. Adams · Oct 21, 2003, 08:10 pm

He is simply the first to bring it into the public light. There are older records, such as Aradia: Gospel of the Witches by Charles Leyland published pre 1900, and his works are claimed to be based upon on Italian witch he met.

You may notice that being a witch was only made legal in Britain in the 60's, so it wasn't something that many were open about, simply because of the treatment they would recieve, and still recieve today.

I don't deny that these are modern religions, but they are not simply new age movements.

I'm still interested in hearing about atheistic pagans.

G. Adams · Oct 21, 2003, 08:16 pm

Actually I've just been reading on www.religioustolerance.com, and even Gardner himself states how there were covens, usually family ones, that existed long before his book, as they contacted him soon after his release saying how they had lost contact with the different groups.

fedfem · Oct 21, 2003, 08:26 pm

Yes, I agree he incorporated a lot of old ways into his religion. Here is a site with some additional info.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5883/...3/paganfaq.html

The Devil · Oct 21, 2003, 09:23 pm

I've read a fair amount about Wicca, and apparently the Gardnerian "denomination" isn't well liked by the rest, because they're too secretive. But hey... I don't know for sure. Wicca has always been very interesting to me. I like it a lot, aside from the fact that there are deities in some of the denominations.

GWilikers · Oct 22, 2003, 09:36 pm

I don't understand the need to supplant one decadent belief with another one. What are you doing, trying to find one that fits into your opinion of what religion should be? Just because atheists claim a belief in no God and agnostics can't make up their minds either way, they still suffer with a belief system. I can't be bothered with all those trappings, so I exist very well with the term non-religious.

Section 8 · Oct 22, 2003, 10:01 pm

It's impossible to be non-relgious, as everyone has a different set of beliefs, or else they wouldn't be humans.

Paganism sounds interesting, but I think that I'll become a divisionist, considering I made up the religion. Soon I will post a revised essay on divisionism.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 22, 2003, 10:20 pm

Art is the only true religion - it has no laws, no mandates, no purpose, no point, and yet it is everything. It's perfect.

Oct 21, 2003, 11:36 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	I thought you already gave up Judaism? I hope you find some other religion or spirituality that better fits you to replace it, if that is what you are looking for. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 21, 2003, 12:08 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Well I can't speak as a pagan, but someone who has adopted many of its ideas into my lifestyle. As well as having a wiccan for a sister. Paganism is bound by one code only </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by and if it harm none, do what thou wilt<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Now paganism is a broad term to cover pantheistic, nature and individual focused religions/spiritualities. The more developed religions within paganism include Wicca (this is witchcraft, female focus BUT there are many men within it. by female focus i mean i respect for mother nature, and all things that follow from that), Druism and Asatru (norse gods). There are many others out there, and many who reject any such titles as wiccan or druid, preferring simply pagan, and choosing what works for them. The fundamental basis for most pagan spiritualism is a threefold worship. There is 'Spirit'. Spirit is simply the energy of the universe that allows it to exist, and all things are contingent upon it. Spirit is neutral. Spirit is also linked to, for want of a better word, karma. The law of karma in paganism is whatever you do returns back to you three times over. Then there are the two central gods, which are male and female. Under paganism there are many gods, but an overall pagan acceptance is that these multiple gods and goddesses are simply aspects of these two overarching divine male and females. The divine female is a reflection of birth, creation, compassion and other similar forms. The divine male is a reflection of passion, energy creativity etc Neither female nor male aspect is more important than the other, even if some branches of paganism do focus more on one, usually the female. Paganism is highly individualistic, in terms of relationship to a divine. There is never, (unless someone is on an ego trip and wants to manipulate people), an intermediary between you and the divine. Part of this individualism comes from the karmic forces, you take responsibility for your own actions. It is also anti-authoritarian, rejecting proper structures, fitting well with your political beliefs in anarchist-socialism. There are however groups with a loose structure. Covens, groups of witches, or Groves sometimes for druids exist. Here we have some time of leadership in that the most experienced members lead ceremonies, rituals or spells. Which leads us onto the next main point of most pagans, spells. Now this is usually what gets the unenlightened aggroed about paganism, because they think your asking daemons for help and as such, which your not. Spells are for pagans what preying is to Christians. You are asking your deity for help in something, in pagans case you are trying to bend Spirit in your favour through the divine female or males. You cannot ask for something that is bad, because you are breaking the central and only tenent of pagans, and anything you do try like that is going to end back at you three times. And.... The way spells work is through belief and force of will. You have to believe that, for example, that your friend will get through an illness and that she WILL get through it. On top of that, if your working with other people, they have to believe it too, or you will be working against their own personal energy. This is why negative spells are considered not to work, as the person your trying to affect will not want it themselves, so you can't affect them. Again similar to buddhism is the belief in reincarnation among some pagans. its not universal, many other believe in going to a heaven, Elysium or Vallhalla. There is very rarely any hell to speak of, this world is bad enough and many consider reincarnation to be like purgatory, one giant groundhogs day, keep going till you've had a decent life. However, I must say that there is a 'dark side', or potential to magick (the K is always put there to demonstrate that it is real magic rather than illusion). It may or may not be real, but although I do in small ways use positive spells myself (i don't do with all the tools and accompaniments that most pagans do, those things are for focusing, and I never ask for things that are so important that I need all those bits), I will never go near the darker stuff just in case. kind of like in usual suspects when the guy says he doesn't believe in god, but he's afraid of him. Look into Aleister Crowley or John Dee for famous people who stepped into that stuff, and John Dees stuff is pretty terrifying if any of it is true. Anyway, back to the good stuff. Paganism, as I have said before, is a nature based spirituality. This is why all the festivals, rituals and spells are focused on the natural cycle. The festivals are based upon the four seasons, Beltaine (aspect of fire, april/may time, celebrating early summer), Lughnassa (harvest time, late summer festival, i think its water aspect, also known as Lammas), Samhain (halloween time, feast of the dead, time of remembrance, this one is earth I THINK) and Imbolc (jan/feb time, rebirth, this could be wind but I just read something about it being related to Brigid, who was is represented by water so it all confusing me now). The above is linked to, and this where I was getting my elemental aspects from, the representations of North, East, South, West. The North is Earth, where the dead reside, its character is humility. East is wind, its mental character is intelligence and cunning. South is fire, representing creativity and passion. West is water, representing wisdom. You can see how North and South demonstrate that these beliefs come from the northern hemisphere. Erm, thats as much as I feel like doing off the top of my head. If there is anything specific you want please ask. Much of my knowledge comes from reading my sisters books on wicca and witchcraft, of which the best author was Silver Ravenwolf. Oh, while I mention that, the names are often like that to represent a personal rebirth into the pagan religion, and are reflections of a persons likes and dislikes, or how they feel they are best represented through that name. Anyway, Silver has a website at www.silverravenwolf.com I don't know how good it is because I havn't looked at it, but her books were really good. I'm not going to say much for Buddhism as you already know plenty about it, but I would reccomend reading Sogyal Rinpoche "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying". Its what got me started into studying buddhism, and is the best I've read so far. I went through a similar phase of confusion over religion and direction in life, until I decided I wasn't going to define myself so narrowly, which is why I just leave it at personal spiritualist, and follow my conscience. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 21, 2003, 01:34 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (zkreso,) if you ask me, all religion is the same, but in a different package.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Same. =P Chances are if you give up on one religion, you will inevitably give up on all others. If you really need religion or spirituality in your life, its best just to make your own. Just come to your own conclusions about God(s) and life. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 21, 2003, 03:11 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,) G. Adams Most Pagans I know would reject the overall definition you gave. Many Pagans(Old ways) are atheists. While Wiccans and such call themselves Pagan, Pagans do not feel Wicca or any of the fluffy new age religions are Pagan. Like all religions--trying to define or organize leads to divisions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Wicca isn't New Age, its about 150 years old, and the women who reintroduced it (apologies I forgot her name) was working on a basis older than that. Modern Druism is about 200 years old. Apart from little bits that have been taken from Caesers writings and the few other primary sources on the original druids, it is all new. Modern Druids have simply integrated Wiccan practice, celtic mythology and those little bits together to create there own spirituality. A lot of the Asatru stuff is reliable, since norse worship only ended in Greenland (or Iceland, I forget which) only ended around 500-600 years ago. In the New Age movement many people looked into these religions because they reflected the values of the new age. But none of the above ones are themselves new age. Paganism is, as I stated an overarching title for any religion or spirituality that came before the big monotheistic religions. My own experience of pagans, people that fall under that umbrella, have been Wiccan or Druid. So I can only relate what I know of them. However of all pagans I've never met an atheist one. Surely they would just class themselves as atheists? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 21, 2003, 03:12 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Ahh crap, well I did mention that bit originally, must have cut it when I was rewriting. It should have been mentioned first off. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 21, 2003, 10:51 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Well, I write this in deep regret. For those of you who don't know, I'm Jewish. Or I should say was Jewish. I lost my faith in God. God is dead. I don't know what religion I am. I guess that makes me augnostic, or divisionist. I guess I'll be looking into divisionism or buddhism, maybe aethiesm. Paganism looked a little too weird, but if there are any pagans on this board please post. I don't know if I'm making a mistake, but I'm pretty sure that God doesn't exist. It just got too dogmatic, placing blind faith in a supreme being.

Oct 21, 2003, 10:55 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I can describe some of it with a quote: "On the contrary, while Gabriel is blowing his horn, I will be playing the tuba."

Oct 21, 2003, 12:13 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
TwoShanks Molten Ash Posts: 29	why do you need a religion at all?

Oct 21, 2003, 12:14 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	Why look for a label? I suggest Unitarian Universalist -UU church. It is a community of people of different faiths as well as agnostics and atheists. http://www.uua.org/newcomers/index.html

Oct 21, 2003, 12:23 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	G. Adams Most Pagans I know would reject the overall definition you gave. Many Pagans(Old ways) are atheists. While Wiccans and such call themselves Pagan, Pagans do not feel Wicca or any of the fluffy new age religions are Pagan. Like all religions--trying to define or organize leads to divisions.

Oct 21, 2003, 01:06 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
zkreso Sedimentary Rock Location: Norway Posts: 21	if you ask me, all religion is the same, but in a different package.

Oct 21, 2003, 02:43 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	Agnosticism is the only "correct" religion, considering anything unknown is simply left unknown. That's what I call myself... an agnostic. I guess I've sort of made anarchy a part of my religion as well though... that's the philosophical backbone for me.

Oct 21, 2003, 04:40 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	Gerald Gardner is considered the father and founder of Wicca. http://www.bcholmes.org/wicca/gardner.html

Oct 21, 2003, 08:10 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	He is simply the first to bring it into the public light. There are older records, such as Aradia: Gospel of the Witches by Charles Leyland published pre 1900, and his works are claimed to be based upon on Italian witch he met. You may notice that being a witch was only made legal in Britain in the 60's, so it wasn't something that many were open about, simply because of the treatment they would recieve, and still recieve today. I don't deny that these are modern religions, but they are not simply new age movements. I'm still interested in hearing about atheistic pagans. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 21, 2003, 08:16 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Actually I've just been reading on www.religioustolerance.com, and even Gardner himself states how there were covens, usually family ones, that existed long before his book, as they contacted him soon after his release saying how they had lost contact with the different groups. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 21, 2003, 08:26 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	Yes, I agree he incorporated a lot of old ways into his religion. Here is a site with some additional info. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5883/...3/paganfaq.html

Oct 21, 2003, 09:23 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	I've read a fair amount about Wicca, and apparently the Gardnerian "denomination" isn't well liked by the rest, because they're too secretive. But hey... I don't know for sure. Wicca has always been very interesting to me. I like it a lot, aside from the fact that there are deities in some of the denominations.

Oct 22, 2003, 09:36 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
GWilikers Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	I don't understand the need to supplant one decadent belief with another one. What are you doing, trying to find one that fits into your opinion of what religion should be? Just because atheists claim a belief in no God and agnostics can't make up their minds either way, they still suffer with a belief system. I can't be bothered with all those trappings, so I exist very well with the term non-religious.

Oct 22, 2003, 10:01 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	It's impossible to be non-relgious, as everyone has a different set of beliefs, or else they wouldn't be humans. Paganism sounds interesting, but I think that I'll become a divisionist, considering I made up the religion. Soon I will post a revised essay on divisionism.

Oct 22, 2003, 10:20 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Art is the only true religion - it has no laws, no mandates, no purpose, no point, and yet it is everything. It's perfect. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.