Truth Absolute?

[Ken Carman]

Absolute truth must exist? Why? There's no logic behind the statement. There's even less in "it must exist somewhere." If there is "absolute truth" then it would be everywhere. What we refer to as "truth" is relative to place, what we know now and even with our most scientifically solid "truths" get bent when shoved though a black hole. And if there are different planes of existence; as some speculate, maybe everything that can be imagined is true somewhere.

[Winter wind]

Absolute truth must exist? Why? There's no logic behind the statement. There's even less in "it must exist somewhere." If there is "absolute truth" then it would be everywhere. What we refer to as "truth" is relative to place, what we know now and even with our most scientifically solid "truths" get bent when shoved though a black hole. And if there are different planes of existence; as some speculate, maybe everything that can be imagined is true somewhere.

Absolute truth must exist because there is no such thing as uncertainty in nature. (except in quantum physics which could kick my argument's ass.)

IE we take the classic example: Wife breaks into a medicine cabinet to save her husband. Regardless of right and wrong, the wife had certain chemicals that ran through her head that caused this. She broke into the cabinet using x force and took the medicine and administered them to her wife. There is no ambiguity in the facts. There is no other way it happened. There is a certain set of facts that are true.

As for that black hole thing, its only because trying to combine the physics of the really large masses and the physics of the really small don't fit together. That's why physicists are trying their hardest to find the "grand unified theory" so that they can merge the physics of the large with the really small without all the laws falling apart.

(on something completely unrelated, I have meta-knight's theme song stuck in my head if anyone knows what im talking about. Please send advise to rid the song from my head!)

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Winter wind Absolute truth must exist because there is no such thing as uncertainty in nature. (except in quantum physics which could kick my argument's ass.) IE we take the classic example: Wife breaks into a medicine cabinet to save her husband. Regardless of right and wrong, the wife had certain chemicals that ran through her head that caused this. She broke into the cabinet using x force and took the medicine and administered them to her wife. There is no ambiguity in the facts. There is no other way it happened. There is a certain set of facts that are true. As for that black hole thing, its only because trying to combine the physics of the really large masses and the physics of the really small don't fit together. That's why physicists are trying their hardest to find the "grand unified theory" so that they can merge the physics of the large with the really small without all the laws falling apart. (on something completely unrelated, I have meta-knight's theme song stuck in my head if anyone knows what im talking about. Please send advise to rid the song from my head!)

"No such thing as uncertainty in nature?"

Tell that to the people who are about to be hit by a hurricane when even the best efforts to predict where it will land fail. The more we learn the more we think we can predict, yet it often still surprises us. It probably always will.

Re: your example. I'll provide my own. Doctors often predict when people are most likely to die. Certain things happen that, let's say someone gets cancer, lead one to think the end is about to happen. Yet studies have shown that people, if they feel it important, hang on. My own mother did this waiting for by brother Ted to come home from Germany in the 60s. He kept trying to catch a transport. She also refused to die until she was in a hospital room. She didn't want us to see her die, and not at home. She hung on until Ted was home and she was in a room. Yes, certain chemicals and such... but it's not as clean and as predictable as you insist. Given even your example: people have been known to exhibit unusual strength when an emergency activates due to adrenaline and outright determination. I'm not talking Superman here... but still unusual. When I was 12 a lawnmower shredded more than half of my foot. I shouldn't have been able to walk, but I ran almost a mile for help. As the doctor said, "He could do it because nobody told him he couldn't." I'm not advocating something necessarily supernatural in all this, just not as clean and tidy as we think we know it to be.

To get rid of song: take a heavy dose of Tom Lehrer, and then one of Tom Paxton. And, if you can find him... Darryl Rhodes.

[Winter wind]

Tell that to the people who are about to be hit by a hurricane when even the best efforts to predict where it will land fail. The more we learn the more we think we can predict, yet it often still surprises us. It probably always will. Re: your example. I'll provide my own. Doctors often predict when people are most likely to die. Certain things happen that, let's say someone gets cancer, lead one to think the end is about to happen. Yet studies have shown that people, if they feel it important, hang on. My own mother did this waiting for by brother Ted to come home from Germany in the 60s. He kept trying to catch a transport. She also refused to die until she was in a hospital room. She didn't want us to see her die, and not at home. She hung on until Ted was home and she was in a room. Yes, certain chemicals and such... but it's not as clean and as predictable as you insist. Given even your example: people have been known to exhibit unusual strength when an emergency activates due to adrenaline and outright determination. I'm not talking Superman here... but still unusual. When I was 12 a lawnmower shredded more than half of my foot. I shouldn't have been able to walk, but I ran almost a mile for help. As the doctor said, "He could do it because nobody told him he couldn't." I'm not advocating something necessarily supernatural in all this, just not as clean and tidy as we think we know it to be.

Well the truth and knowing the truth are two different beasts. I don't think any sane person claims to know everything. It's like the weather report, the idiots may always get the report wrong, but it doesn't mean that there were several truths. It's just the truth that was reported wasn't the truth.

In response to your analogy, the human body hasn't been fully explored. Ask any neuroscientist and they will agree with me. There are twist that have yet to be fathomed, IE, superhuman strength when you know death is on you. An idea of why that happens is that normally the body puts a limit on how much of the muscle can be used (something like 20% i think) so that the muscle doesn't tear itself apart, but when death is upon someone, those limits are broken.
Just because we don't know the truth doesn't mean their isn't one.

Thanks for the advise on the music, it's helped a little.

[Jack]

Just because we don't know the truth doesn't mean their isn't one.

That's why it's important to first establish if absolute truth is even possible. If we can determine it isn't, then there's no sense in searching for it. If we establish it is possible, then we can debate what that truth might be.

[Winter wind]

That's why it's important to first establish if absolute truth is even possible. If we can determine it isn't, then there's no sense in searching for it. If we establish it is possible, then we can debate what that truth might be.

what does 1 + 1 =?

2 always
its absolute

[Jack]

I thought we'd already agreed that mathematics is a special case, an environment free from the ambiguities of real life. Can mathematical truths be extrapolated into the real world as philosophical truths?

Mathematics is an attempt to establish absolute truth on a certain level of reality, and if that's all you meant by truths then I'd agree that it exists in that particular context.

But I don't know anyone who lives their life based solely on mathematics, any philosophy derived from mathematics or how the truths in mathematics translate into guidance for living our daily lives.

[Winter wind]

Math and science are everything (Really only math)
I'll prove it. I can convert everything you use into a math or science question. However, considering my knowledge in both areas are limited, so don't tease me if my math is off...

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Winter wind Math and science are everything (Really only math) I'll prove it. I can convert everything you use into a math or science question. However, considering my knowledge in both areas are limited, so don't tease me if my math is off...

Given the context of any math equation, or any formula, I could probably "convert" it into a creative story. Not sure how much either proves, except nothing is probably absolutely disconnected from something else.

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: Winter wind what does 1 + 1 =? 2 always its absolute

No in a Base2 system, where there is no character or numeric value of "2". Everything is subject to the language we speak.
You talked about the woman in going to get medicine from a cabinet. The ability to share that idea with us relies entirely on language, your ability to describe the events means you used to words with a set of definitions that anyone can understand. But, is the statement "The woman gets medicine from the cabinet" true is their is no word for, say, medicine. If there are words without meaning, dead metaphors, like corpuscularianism, or plato's theory of the forms and there are also things in existence which have yet to be assigned a word (like the word quantum physics in the 1400s) then isn't it entirely possible to have a system in which things reign "true" only because we are playing a language game where "true" statements are possible.
Example, a tribe of made up people. They don't have the word for truth. Can they have absolute truth?

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Suburbanite No in a Base2 system, where there is no character or numeric value of "2". Everything is subject to the language we speak. You talked about the woman in going to get medicine from a cabinet. The ability to share that idea with us relies entirely on language, your ability to describe the events means you used to words with a set of definitions that anyone can understand. But, is the statement "The woman gets medicine from the cabinet" true is their is no word for, say, medicine. If there are words without meaning, dead metaphors, like corpuscularianism, or plato's theory of the forms and there are also things in existence which have yet to be assigned a word (like the word quantum physics in the 1400s) then isn't it entirely possible to have a system in which things reign "true" only because we are playing a language game where "true" statements are possible. Example, a tribe of made up people. They don't have the word for truth. Can they have absolute truth?

And that's only if we insist "1" and "0" have some meaning. I usually provide this as an indication that if we ever did meet aliens: a sentient species from another planet, we wouldn't recognize them as such and they probably wouldn't recognize us. We're too use to thinking that because we use concepts, such as "1" or "0," every other sentient species would too.

[Jack]

Heck, we haven't always had a zero...

The concept of zero is surprisingly deep, and it took human thinkers quite a long time to come up with the notion of zero. In fact, though mathematicians began thinking about the concept of zero in 2000-1800 B.C.E., it was not until about 200-300 B.C.E. that the Babylonians began using a symbol that would evolve into what we today know as zero. It turns out that mathematicians first thought of zero in the context of writing numbers down -- zero was first a placeholder. Before mathematicians understood the notion of zero, there was much ambiguity about written numbers. For instance, if the symbol for 5 was written down, there was no way to tell what number was being expressed -- was it 5? Or, 50? Or, 5,000,000? Thus, zero was introduced as a placeholder to avoid these ambiguities. In India, the concepts of 0 as a placeholder and 0 as a number were associated with one another much earlier than in Babylon. It is from the Indians that we get our present-day symbol for 0.

Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: Ken Carman And that's only if we insist "1" and "0" have some meaning. I usually provide this as an indication that if we ever did meet aliens: a sentient species from another planet, we wouldn't recognize them as such and they probably wouldn't recognize us. We're too use to thinking that because we use concepts, such as "1" or "0," every other sentient species would too.

Which is why I say you can never escape the human experience enough to know anything as vastly reaching as ultimate truth.

[Winter wind]

No in a Base2 system, where there is no character or numeric value of "2". Everything is subject to the language we speak.

Oh, for crying out loud. In a base 2 system. 1=1 and 10=2. therefore 1+1=10. but that's not a different truth. There is no way that is a different truth. Its the same truth in a different language.

And that's only if we insist "1" and "0" have some meaning. I usually provide this as an indication that if we ever did meet aliens: a sentient species from another planet, we wouldn't recognize them as such and they probably wouldn't recognize us. We're too use to thinking that because we use concepts, such as "1" or "0," every other sentient species would too.

I find it extraordinarily unlikely that any intelligent life would have no concept of singular and non-existent. To test my theory, try as hard as you can to use any logic without using non-existent and singular. It doesn't work. (I think. It might just be I can't think of any way it can work.)

But, is the statement "The woman gets medicine from the cabinet" true is their is no word for, say, medicine.

Now your just being mean.
Alright fine. Medicine was...let's say aspirin (for simplicities sake).
nine carbons, eight hydrogens, and four oxygens aligned to give aspirin its properties. It isn't that medicine isn't without meaning, its that its meaning is too broad. The word itself is nothing, the interpretation is everything. But that does not make multiple truths. You interpreting something is one truth. I interpreting it another is another truth. Not multiple truths for one thing.

Take a painting.
I say it looks like a dog
You say it looks like a cat
Artist painted it to look like a bird
These truths are absolute. They may not be in depth enough, but that could take hundreds of pages, but there is an absolute truth.

Example, a tribe of made up people. They don't have the word for truth. Can they have absolute truth?

Show me that tribe, or hell, create one on your own and see if it is possible. Then come back and tell me because until you do, I won't accept this example.

Heck, we haven't always had a zero...

*snort* they may not have had the circle, but if you research it farther, zero as a place holder was represented as a space. A gap. The Chinese numeral for one and the English numeral for one are different shapes, but mean the same thing. Again, not an un-absolute truth. Plus, you haven't told us when they made the term 1. Otherwise there is no comparison.

Given the context of any math equation, or any formula, I could probably "convert" it into a creative story. Not sure how much either proves, except nothing is probably absolutely disconnected from something else

I'm sure you could convert it onto a creative story which only proves that creative stories are all created from absolute truths. All creative stories are absolute truths.
What it proves is that math is not an exception from the truth ever as math is the truth.

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: Winter wind Oh, for crying out loud. In a base 2 system. 1=1 and 10=2. therefore 1+1=10. but that's not a different truth. There is no way that is a different truth. Its the same truth in a different language.

That is sort of my whole point. Different truths in different languages. It is the way in which your language relates to itself that determine true statements. It is impossible for a computer, for example, to comprehend the number "2" because it is a digital binary machine. It can only assign real actions to 1 and 0, on and off.

Quote by: Winter wind I find it extraordinarily unlikely that any intelligent life would have no concept of singular and non-existent. To test my theory, try as hard as you can to use any logic without using non-existent and singular. It doesn't work. (I think. It might just be I can't think of any way it can work.)

Other creatures wouldn't necessarily have the concept of logic anyways, or math. The reason it is impossible to imagine however because you can never escape your own language, your own human condition.

Quote by: Winter wind Show me that tribe, or hell, create one on your own and see if it is possible. Then come back and tell me because until you do, I won't accept this example.

There are a plethora of these types of people. Tribes without words that other tribes have. Here is a word you don't know that described an emotion you didn't know humans had: litost. It is a very real emotion, but in English there is no word for it. It is the anguish felt when you become aware of your own suffering. As a result, you get this "ball in your throat" feeling.

[Winter wind]

That is sort of my whole point. Different truths in different languages. It is the way in which your language relates to itself that determine true statements. It is impossible for a computer, for example, to comprehend the number "2" because it is a digital binary machine. It can only assign real actions to 1 and 0, on and off.

Wait wait....so different languages make different truths? If thats you definition then I completely agree with you. My definition is facts. That there are a certain set of facts to everything that are unchangeable. How you describe them can be different without effecting the facts.

Other creatures wouldn't necessarily have the concept of logic anyways, or math. The reason it is impossible to imagine however because you can never escape your own language, your own human condition.

I beg to differ. I think humans are versitile thinkers to the point that we can accept other things that we weren't brought up with. (ie I'm learning to speak Chinese. I have a conversational level of speaking. I've escaped my own language of English fairly well.)

It is the anguish felt when you become aware of your own suffering. As a result, you get this "ball in your throat" feeling.

No English word? no but you were able to describe it in English. Just cause we didn't condense it into a few letters doesn't mean it is impossible to translate. Plus, you still haven't shown me a language without the symbol for truth.

[Jack]

We have many words for things that lack a physical reality, like god, fairies, monsters, and even more words that describe philosophical concepts. Having a word for some truth thought to be absolute doesn't validate its absolute nature. We have yet to define what truths are absolute and why they are or aren't absolute. The thread's about absolute, not temporal, truths. So just any truth won't fit the bill.

[Objectivist]

Quote by: Isherwood We have many words for things that lack a physical reality, like god, fairies, monsters, and even more words that describe philosophical concepts. Having a word for some truth thought to be absolute doesn't validate its absolute nature. We have yet to define what truths are absolute and why they are or aren't absolute. The thread's about absolute, not temporal, truths. So just any truth won't fit the bill.

What about the absolute truth that existence exists?

[Jack]

Too self-referential. It basically says that existence=existence. Maybe it qualifies, but personally I don't think it does.

[Objectivist]

Quote by: Isherwood Too self-referential. It basically says that existence=existence. Maybe it qualifies, but personally I don't think it does.

Well isn't it absolute?

Everything in the universe is existence. Existence is not an antecedent. Existence is not a product of supernatural forces or a God (because God and anything supernatural is subsumed under existence).

The first absolute truth humans have is that existence exists. Because humans are conscious. But before you can be conscious, you have to be conscious of something. The first entities you are conscious of are part of existence...

The products of this absolute truth are in my blog: The Objectivist's Opinion