Truth Absolute?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos The quantum level only seems abstract to the minds of indivuduals who are unaccustomed to dealing with it.

You mean to normal people?

To a quantum physicist, I would suppose, the seemingly random makeup of quantum realities seem relatively ordered.

Yes, but quantum physicists aren't normal.

And by the same token, we may determine the absolute truth of the universe- in part, at least- from the experience life brings.

Or, at the very least, certain things might be observed as being absolute.

[Mr. Jaggers]

It would take a very great philosopher to know the absolute truth; and yet every day the most casual persons take oaths to “tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”; which probably comes about as close to the absolute truth as may be conceived. At the trial of Jesus, Pontius Pilate asked: “What is truth?” Interestingly, Christ did not answer the question; and in his silence, there is perhaps more truth than what is written in all of the gospels.

[Suburbanite]

Is that in the Bible? the Pilate asked "What is truth?" to Jesus? Interesting.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Suburbanite Is that in the Bible? the Pilate asked "What is truth?" to Jesus? Interesting.

Yes, Pilate did ask exactly that question.

[La Mangra]

Quote by: Chancellor 2+2=4

That depends on what is measured by numbers

If all this is about one set of numbers' rules, then it is always right unless other sets are involved

If this is about real life examples, then it is never right

2 apples + 2 apples is 4 apples

another 2 apples + another 2 apples is 4 another apples

Now, in both cases the results are 4, but it's two different piles of apples

You can bring no real life example which would be mirrored by numbers exactly as it is

[La Mangra]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos I come from Greece, a land steeped in ancient religious tradition, and it is also, I might add- the birthplace of the logic that atheists cling to so dearly. With this background of national duality (which continues even today), one would think that one would be more prepared for something like the fierce debate that rages on in American society due to this one religion in particular: Biblical Christianity. A religion that claims to exclusively have the ear of God. It is fact that absolute truth must exist somewhere, and also that it (in its sum total) can reside only in one place. However, snatches of Veritas exist everywhere- even in the slightly odd practices of the Neopagans. So, then, it is not the hopeless search for truth perfected by man that must consume us, but a quest to aqquire as many of these fragments of precious Veritas as is humanly possible. Please, friends, your thoughts...

There is no absolute truth because the same things may be presented by different contents in entirely different ways

There is nothing in the nature what could be used to measure which one of these presentations is the absolute truth and which one is not right

[Winter wind]

The answer depends on what your definition of truth is.
Mine is fact.
There can be different view points and opinions, but only one fact remains. Fact is absolute and true.
(unless my logic is completely wrong.)

[La Mangra]

Quote by: Winter wind The answer depends on what your definition of truth is. Mine is fact. There can be different view points and opinions, but only one fact remains. Fact is absolute and true. (unless my logic is completely wrong.)

Then I can say it so

The same fact may be presented by different contents in entirely different ways

There is nothing in the nature what could be used to measure which one of these presentations is the absolute truth and which one is not right

[Chancellor]

Quote by: La Mangra That depends on what is measured by numbers If all this is about one set of numbers' rules, then it is always right unless other sets are involved If this is about real life examples, then it is never right 2 apples + 2 apples is 4 apples another 2 apples + another 2 apples is 4 another apples Now, in both cases the results are 4, but it's two different piles of apples You can bring no real life example which would be mirrored by numbers exactly as it is

It comes down to "this many plus this many equals that many."

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos It is fact that absolute truth must exist somewhere

This is not a fact. There is nothing absolute, intrinsic, or necessary about truth. Truth is made up, by humans. Don't believe me, read the quote I just quote of you. Look, you said "it is a fact" when it is so clearly not a fact.

[La Mangra]

Quote by: Chancellor It comes down to "this many plus this many equals that many."

Then 2+2=4 is absolute truth

But it means nothing, besides math and things like math there is no absolute truth

You've just hit the area where absolute truth does exist - the math

[Jack]

There can be different view points and opinions, but only one fact remains. Fact is absolute and true.

I think I understand you, but an example might help. Also, I believe that context determines even the relative "truth" of a declaration. In other words and to use your terminology, such-and-such is a fact in what situation?

It's a fact that physiologically I'm a man. Anyone can check the truth of that premise (anyone I know really well, anyway). But it may be a fact only in the context of physical attributes. Emotionally I may be more feminine, intellectually a neuter. What's the absolute truth? There isn't any. The fact I'm a man is only true in a certain context.

Am I making any sense?

Mathematics exists in a strictly constrained environment, so it's truths are easier to determine. Mathematics is objective and doesn't suffer from subjective contexts.

[Winter wind]

Then I can say it so The same fact may be presented by different contents in entirely different ways There is nothing in the nature what could be used to measure which one of these presentations is the absolute truth and which one is not right

Yes, but if something is X meters and someone says its Y feet, it doesn't mean there are different truths, just two different numbers meaning the same thing. Same fact, same stat, different language.
Different languages does not equal different truths.

[Winter wind]

It's a fact that physiologically I'm a man. Anyone can check the truth of that premise (anyone I know really well, anyway). But it may be a fact only in the context of physical attributes. Emotionally I may be more feminine, intellectually a neuter. What's the absolute truth? There isn't any. The fact I'm a man is only true in a certain context.

The problem is the term "man" isn't specific enough. Everything you have said is a generalization. Physically you have characteristics of a man, yet you may have a different neurological set up in your head or have more estrogen in your blood stream.

That isn't different truths, just a problem with generalizations.

[Jack]

The problem is the term "man" isn't specific enough.

Physiologically, I can make the term very specific, but then I'd have to move this thread into the adult forum. Within the context of physiology, I think man is sufficiently specific.

[Winter wind]

Well i know that, but I meant that you use the term man to mean several things

actual gender
mental self
intellectual self.

plus there is no list for what is a man in intellectual thinking.
that isn't many truths.

[La Mangra]

Quote by: Winter wind Yes, but if something is X meters and someone says its Y feet, it doesn't mean there are different truths, just two different numbers meaning the same thing. Same fact, same stat, different language. Different languages does not equal different truths.

This is a math example

Can you, please, give real life example ?

It is most likely that you will not be able to do so

Is shit a fact or is it a molecules that just smell this way ?

Since it is molecules that just smell this way, due to this another fact, the shit is merely a matter and as such the shit may be eaten and that is Ok

By the way, how do you think the honey is being made ?

Trust me, if human shit would smell differently, it would be entire nations that would eat shit

If we were trees, would it be rape should one tree put its branch into another tree ?

[Jack]

I meant that you use the term man to mean several things

It seems you're supporting my contention that context is a determiner of the validity, or truth, of a fact. This would argue against absolute truths, which would be consistent across all contexts.

[Henry]

Quote by: Winter wind The answer depends on what your definition of truth is. Mine is fact. There can be different view points and opinions, but only one fact remains. Fact is absolute and true. (unless my logic is completely wrong.)

Truth is ---- a car at an intersection was in a collision. Facts of how, may vary according to the witnesses, and the view from different postions.

Creation happened, how is debateable.

[Winter wind]

how is debateable.

Only cause we don't know the truth.
There is one, we just don't know it.
there is no murkiness
now the fun counter argument to this can be found by anyone who knows anything about the uncertainty principal. I call on all physics students and teachers!