Who Cares If God Exists?

[Milton Bradley]

Originally posted by Pooeypants,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pooeypants,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Milton Bradley, The Watch Analogy One of my neighbors favorite analogies for explaining the complexities of the universe, the reason God "must exist", is that you can put all the parts of a watch down on a table somewhere, and left undisturbed, they would never arange themselves into a working watch. In other words, they would say that simple things never become more complex in nature. They say there is no evidence of this type of thing happening in the natural world.

Amazing, I didn't know a mechanical watch was capable of self replicating.
Next please...

Science now believes itself to be able to describe the events necessarry to explain what we see around us in the everyday world. One of the things they ask us to accept is that the simplest atom known, hydrogen, is fused into helium when a star burns from its natural state in space. So here you have huge cloud of gas, which under the laws of gravity, is congealed into ever denser clouds which then ignite, quite naturally, and then build more complex atoms like we see in the world we can actually test before our eyes. I just thought I would throw that out there since it contradicts a popular position being debated these days.

The Science behind Astronomy and nuclear physics is very sound and support by ample of empirical data. Perhaps one day you'd like to take a course in Astrophysics to learn there is no magic involved, just pure laws of physics in action. Try harder, next please.[/b][/quote]



Look, I ddon't want to turn this into a fight, but, I don't think you comprehend what you read. I have no idea how else to respond to this. Either you do not understand, or you are just trying to be a smartass.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps Scribbler1: Quote: "Lastly, if God is truly the "father" of us all, where is he? We have an absent parent situation here, and I know I wouldn't respect my own father if he took off, so who can blame me for not thinking this ethereal being (if he exists) deserves any respect either." Question - have you really sought Him out - or do you expect Him to break down the door?

That is a trick question. How about all the people who seek him out and are not acknowlegded? Are they just not doing it right?

Also, my opinion stems from observation. I got free will. Wheee! then I get blown away by some creep who has ALSO been blessed with free will. Or even better, take those poor bastards in Africa. They have free will too I suppose. To do what, decide which bug to swat off their dying kids?

I prefer believeing that God does not exist, thank you. The only other option would be to believe he is a malavolent spirit who plays humanity for enjoyment, like some twisted real-life version of "Doom".

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Milton Bradley, Look, I don't want to turn this into a fight, but, I don't think you comprehend what you read. I have no idea how else to respond to this. Either you do not understand, or you are just trying to be a smartass.

I think to some extent pooeypants and other overreacted and misinterpreted Milton's posts resulting in some hostility.

Please reread the posts and respond appropriately.

[PhanthomOps]

Scribbler1:
Quote: "That is a trick question. How about all the people who seek him out and are not acknowlegded? Are they just not doing it right?"

Hello - this was not a trick question: I sim[ly said " have you really sought Him out - or do you expect Him to break down the door?"

This question was directed at you, and you alone.

Quote: "I prefer believeing that God does not exist, thank you."

That is your right, and I respect it. However, there are many thousands, myself included who have experienced God's hand in our lives, and no matter what anyone says, that cannot be taken from us.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Scribbler1: Quote: "That is a trick question. How about all the people who seek him out and are not acknowlegded? Are they just not doing it right?" Hello - this was not a trick question: I sim[ly said " have you really sought Him out - or do you expect Him to break down the door?" This question was directed at you, and you alone. Quote: "I prefer believeing that God does not exist, thank you." That is your right, and I respect it. However, there are many thousands, myself included who have experienced God's hand in our lives, and no matter what anyone says, that cannot be taken from us.

I won't personalize this, as I am quite aware of the outcome. I've seen it before and the answer is always something like "you didn't really believe as he welcomes everyone, etc. etc." I won't go down that road.
However, I have always supported anyone's belief if it does them some good, and I support yours, but as I said before, I don't believe and you do. One of us is possibly right, but it doesn't change a thing. Belief is not proof just as not believing is not proof to the contrary.

I am not and have never been trying to take anything away from anyone. I just get a little tired of people shoving it down my throat. Not you specifically, but there are those who try to hit you over the head with religion and I find them annoying. When they get power over others I find them frightening.

I don't know about you, but these threads usually end up a waste of time so I'm outta here.

[PhanthomOps]

Scribbler1:

Without addressing each of your points, just let me say, I respect you and your opinions as well. Each one of us must decide for themselves what they will and will not believe, and live our lives accordingly.

Just as a comment and not an attack, I am reminded of something I read - "Absence of Proof is not Proof of Absence".

Quote: "I don't know about you, but these threads usually end up a waste of time so I'm outta here."

Only if they end up in attacks as opposed to debate, of which I am guilty of at times.

[samsara15]

God or Jim Doodle or Jesus taught nothing, because a non-existent being cannot teach anything. We created God in the dawn of antiquity, out of human imagination.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Scribbler1: Quote: "I don't know about you, but these threads usually end up a waste of time so I'm outta here." Only if they end up in attacks as opposed to debate, of which I am guilty of at times.

I'm not aware of you attacking anyone, but I still am out of this, as experience has taught me something about certain subjects. Anything based solely on faith (or lack therof) is undebateable and leads to frayed tempers, as NOBODY wants to be told they're wrong, regardless of which side you're on. My take on debate is that it comes from "I'm right and you're wrong and I want you to see things MY way". But I have no desire to try and talk someone out of their religion, as I don't want someone to talk me INTO it. As I've said several times before, I don't believe in God but I totally support religion if it proves to be a source of strength or comfort to anyone. Who the hell am I to want to take THAT away? Conversely, the zealots out there who want to bash me over the head with their faith or demean me for beliveing otherwise give me agita.

That's why I'm declaring a personal moratorium on religious threads from here on. But I WILL see you on the other topics! :)

[Gorgo]

I don't care if anyone learns from discussions about religion but me. It is interesting to find out what other people think and why, and if nothing else, I learn what other people think.

[PhanthomOps]

samsara15:
Quote: "God or Jim Doodle or Jesus taught nothing, because a non-existent being cannot teach anything. We created God in the dawn of antiquity, out of human imagination."

http://www.geocities.com/7life/Jesus.html
The Writings of Flavius Josephus
In Rome, in the year 93, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews. In discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included this revealing account that shows that not only did Jesus of Nazareth live, but that He rose from the dead:

Scribbler1:

Your philosphy is admirable and does you credit. Your position is quite understandable and deserves respect. Look forward to seeing you on other threads. Have a great day :) :)

Gorgo:
Quote: "I don't care if anyone learns from discussions about religion but me. It is interesting to find out what other people think and why, and if nothing else, I learn what other people think."

Does this mean that you are open??? Or that you just want to pick at other's brains, feelings and emotions for the purpose of ridicule??

[Gorgo]

Open? Do you mean, do I believe as you do? No, I do not believe as you do.

Are you open?

Who am I ridiculing? I am challenging, but I have not called you names or put you down. Instead, I've told you that you no longer have to live in a fantasy world to get self-worth. That's a healthy thing.

Originally posted by PhanthomOps[b Gorgo: Does this mean that you are open??? Or that you just want to pick at other's brains, feelings and emotions for the purpose of ridicule??[/b]

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, samsara15: Quote: "God or Jim Doodle or Jesus taught nothing, because a non-existent being cannot teach anything. We created God in the dawn of antiquity, out of human imagination." http://www.geocities.com/7life/Jesus.html The Writings of Flavius Josephus In Rome, in the year 93, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews. In discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included this revealing account that shows that not only did Jesus of Nazareth live, but that He rose from the dead:

You're citing a source which happens to be written more than 60 years or so after your Messiah's supposedly death. Now if I were to write an account about someone from 60 years ago who I'd never meet before and only knew by word of mouth, how reliable would you take it as?

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Pooeypants,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pooeypants,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps, samsara15: Quote: "God or Jim Doodle or Jesus taught nothing, because a non-existent being cannot teach anything. We created God in the dawn of antiquity, out of human imagination." http://www.geocities.com/7life/Jesus.html The Writings of Flavius Josephus In Rome, in the year 93, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews. In discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included this revealing account that shows that not only did Jesus of Nazareth live, but that He rose from the dead: [/b]

You're citing a source which happens to be written more than 60 years or so after your Messiah's supposedly death. Now if I were to write an account about someone from 60 years ago who I'd never meet before and only knew by word of mouth, how reliable would you take it as?[/b][/quote]

I agree, the quote by Josephus is grasping at straws and questionable by most historians. We do not have anything close to his original documents and they are considered likely edited. Josephus is a questionable figure known for exageration, fuging facts and turn coat.

As far as what is constitutes a reliable record of the would be the detailed records of the Roman suppression of the rebellion in the Holy Lands, which shows the true Roman detail for accurate records.

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo:
Quote: "Who am I ridiculing? I am challenging, but I have not called you names or put you down. Instead, I've told you that you no longer have to live in a fantasy world to get self-worth. That's a healthy thing."

What is calling someone an idiot, ignorant, living in a fantasy world, etc., because they have a belief that you disagree with???

Pooeypants:
Quote: "You're citing a source which happens to be written more than 60 years or so after your Messiah's supposedly death. Now if I were to write an account about someone from 60 years ago who I'd never meet before and only knew by word of mouth, how reliable would you take it as?"

Does this help??
http://everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
1. Does God exist? Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God.
2. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
3. Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation.
4. Does God exist? Humankind's inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained.
5. Does God exist? God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God.

[samsara15]

A lttle science? If that's not imporatant, then a book based on poorly attsted. facts over two thousand years old, is also uniportant. I might as well believe only in myself and my own percetions. We might as well cease all discussion, because nothing is discussable.

[PhanthomOps]

Shunyadragon - samsara15:

Does this help???

http://www.restoredcog.org/questions/p189.a.html
Q: Is there evidence, besides the Bible, proving that Christ existed?
A: This is a topic of much debate among many religionists and archaeologists. However, the account of Christ's life, as found in the Bible—which is inspired revelation from God—serves as proof enough of His existence! However, there are other sources that contribute to the proof of His life and death.

A second-century theologian, Justin Martyr, wrote, "Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, 35 stadia from Jerusalem, in which Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registries of the taxing under Cyrenius your first procurator in Judea" (First Apology, chapter 34).

Martyr was referring to the records of Jesus' birth in Judea that were still in existence in his day. But, since he was a theologian who would naturally support accounts of Christ's existence, his account may seem invalid to the doubter.

What about historians against Christianity? What did their writings say?

One of such anti-Christian mentality was Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian, senator, consul and governor of the province of Asia. Concerning Jesus and His followers, Tacitus wrote, "Nero…punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate. But in spite of this temporary setback, the deadly superstition had broken out afresh, not only in Judea (where this mischief had started) but even in Rome" (The Annals of Imperial Rome, XV, 44).

Julian the Apostate (called such because he rejected Christianity after being raised in it), a fourth-century emperor, wrote, "Jesus, whom you celebrate, was one of Caesar's subjects. If you dispute it, I will prove it by and by; but it may be as well done now. For yourselves allow, that he was enrolled with his father and mother in Cyrenius…But Jesus having persuaded a few among you, and those the worst of men, has now been celebrated about 300 years; having done nothing worthy of remembrance; unless anyone thinks it is a mighty matter to heal lame and blind people, and exorcise demoniacs in the villages of Bethsaida and Bethany" (Cyril Contra Julian, VI, 191, 213).

These are just two quotes from pagan Roman scholars who loathed Christianity. Since these men had access to government records, and hated what Christians believed and stood for, they could have easily "disproved" and discredited the existence of Christ if they so wished. But, because they could not do such a thing, their writings only add to the monumental proof of the life of Christ.

What about the Jewish people? If Christ did not exist, how then could the Jews reject Him?

In his book Antiquities of the Jews, Jewish historian Flavius Josephus writes about Jesus, His disciples and John the Baptist. He referred to John as "the good man" (XVIII, 5, 2). Modern-day scholars recognize Josephus' account of the death of James, "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ" (XX, 9, 1), as genuine.

The Jewish Encyclopedia (1907 edition) explains that Jesus is also mentioned in the Talmud, the Jewish tradition consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara. These references to Christ are found in the sections Shabbath 104b and 116b; Sanhedrin 43a, 67a and 107b; and Sotah 47a. You may want to read an article entitled "Jesus of Nazareth," from The Jewish Encyclopedia (1907), the articles "Jesus Christ" and "Talmud and Midrash" from The New Encyclopedia Britannica (1981), or the article "Jesus" in the Encyclopedia Judaica for more background concerning this subject.

These sources offer valuable information regarding the many proofs of the life of Christ. They point to the immutable facts that He: was born of a virgin, was of Jewish nationality, preached the gospel, healed the sick and diseased, and was betrayed and brutally slaughtered.

[Sonart]

I have no problem believing that Jesus existed, or that Mohammed existed or Joseph Smith existed or Sidhartha existed or Confusious existed or Moses existed.

That doesn't mean that God exists.

[Pooeypants]

PhantomOp, you're recycling posts which give very little knowledge or rather invalid ones. You've still to show me a contempory source from a historian who lived at the time the supposedly Messiah did, I do not trust articles written about a man more than 60 years after their death, why do you?

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Gorgo: Quote: "Who am I ridiculing? I am challenging, but I have not called you names or put you down. Instead, I've told you that you no longer have to live in a fantasy world to get self-worth. That's a healthy thing." What is calling someone an idiot, ignorant, living in a fantasy world, etc., because they have a belief that you disagree with??? Pooeypants: Quote: "You're citing a source which happens to be written more than 60 years or so after your Messiah's supposedly death. Now if I were to write an account about someone from 60 years ago who I'd never meet before and only knew by word of mouth, how reliable would you take it as?" Does this help?? http://everystudent.com/features/isthere.html 1. Does God exist? Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God. 2. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today. 3. Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation. 4. Does God exist? Humankind's inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained. 5. Does God exist? God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible. 6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God.

Here is an example of that recycling. I wanted you to address the point of reliability yet you give me some short answers of from philosophy about God. What relevance is this? Do I have to be blinded by faith to accept those sources? Is that what you're trying to say?

[Gorgo]

I'd like you to show me where I used the word idiot in reference to anyone on this board. Or is it that you think that people who disagree with you and whom you think live in fantasy worlds are idiots and ignorant?

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, What is calling someone an idiot, ignorant, living in a fantasy world, etc., because they have a belief that you disagree with???