God Does Not Exist Because .........

[Starboy]

Quote by: zynner Yes, an all-powerful god could actually become a turd. However, once it performs this "miracle," it becomes a turd and is no longer a god.

You are having a hard time with this aren't you? An all powerful god that could not be the turd and still be god would not be all powerful. Are you getting the jist yet? My original claim was that the concept of an all powerful god was a logical short circuit. The equavalent of division by zero in algebra. It is something that must be forbidden because if you allow it into your mental set it creates nonsense. Like a god that is a turd and still a god.

Starboy

[zynner]

Quote by: Starboy My original claim was that the concept of an all powerful god was a logical short circuit. The equavalent of division by zero in algebra. It is something that must be forbidden because if you allow it into your mental set it creates nonsense. Like a god that is a turd and still a god.

Your argument goes something like this:

(1) An all-powerful god could become both a god and a non-god
(2) It's not possible to be "A" and "not A" at the same time
(3) Therefore, an all-powerful god is impossible

It is because of the Law of Identity that you have arrived at the conclusion that the idea of an all-powerful god creates mental nonsense. If #2 were not true, then you would not be able to prove #3.

We agree.

~ zynner

[Starboy]

Quote by: zynner Your argument goes something like this: (1) An all-powerful god could become both a god and a non-god (2) It's not possible to be "A" and "not A" at the same time (3) Therefore, an all-powerful god is impossible It is because of the Law of Identity that you have arrived at the conclusion that the idea of an all-powerful god creates mental nonsense. If #2 were not true, then you would not be able to prove #3. We agree. ~ zynner

Close enough. There is a proof in symbolic logic that I came across a very long time ago that stated that from the assumption A and ~A one can prove any statement B. Thus a complete breakdown of logic. Just as in algebra if you allow division by zero you can show that 1 = 2. Because of this division by zero is not allowed in algebra and is said to result in an undefined number, that is a number that is not a possible solution within the realm of mathematics.

Division by zero - Wikipedia

So likewise in logic an assumption that allows one to prove any statement B also results in an undefined result. A result that is not possible in the realm of logic. So an all-powerful being is not logically allowed.

Now like mathematics one can consider the limit of 1/x as x -> 0 and the same goes for logic. We can consider the strength of a set of powers as they approach all powerful. People of a supernatural bent do that all the time. But as in math, the value of 1/x at x = 0 is just not allowed. Same with an all powerful being when it comes to reason. So people who try to justify an all powerful god with reason just don't get reason or an all powerful god. Just as people that try to divide by zero just don't get mathematics.

Dividing by Zero

Starboy

[Flip Jackson]

Sorry, it has taken me a bit to finish my initial answer, but I felt the need to finish what I started. Here you go Zynner, I will answer as many questions as I can in the time that I have.

I think people have free will which means they can heed warnings or ignore them. God doesn't just punish people for fun. He tells them that certain actions will have negative consequences. This is different from saying "My way or the hell-way."

As far as being honest and wanting us to be happy, both are easily possible I think. The important thing we have to recognize is that a trait cannot exist without an opposing trait. Happiness could not exist without sadness. Good couldn't happen if there was no evil. If we never experienced anything bad, how could we be happy if we had nothing to compare it to?

Now, I don't know if God causes disasters or he just made the earth, and disasters happen of their own accord. Perhaps both are true. Maybe He allows them to occur to see how we will react. Maybe He knows that as important as this life is, it isn't the end. Even if people die in a disaster, they can still be happy in the next life. And, honestly, I think happiness has very little to do with what happens to you. It has to do with the perspective and attitude you take on life.

I think He obviously knows man's nature in general, but I think He also knows each of us, better than we know ourselves. This is why I leave judging to Him. I don't know people's circumstances and perceptions and experiences. He does. He can make the judgement about who is worthy of hell, and who has beeen good enough to be exalted.

Almost all of my views on God are "adopted" I suppose from my religion. Keep in mind though that this is all my understanding of what I have been taught, and could be lacking somewhere. I think this is a real God, but wouldn't dare come up with my own view of God from scratch. I don't think you can get to know God through reason alone. I do however apply reason to the best of my ability to what I have learned about God. This makes sense to me.

Yes, I have a lot of "evidence" for my beliefs. This doesn't mean that everyone that hears the evidence thinks the same thing I do. People interpret evidence differently depending on what they want to see. If you'd like I could briefly list what I consider evidence of my beliefs, but this post is already kinda long. I feel that some deity exists, but that isn't my standard of His existence. I think I have more to go on that just a feeling.

I'm not sure what I would have to hear to convince me that your proof is correct. It would have to be logical, but that also assumes that your logic and mine coincide, which we already know isn't completely true due to our different belief systems. I do want to hear your proof though to see why you seem to think it is so effective, and see if it applies to my idea of who God is.

[zynner]

Hey Flip,

I just found out that I'm going to be very busy myself for the next week or two. Maybe longer. Not sure how often I can jump back into this debate, but will keep with it. If you want to start a new thread, that's fine. I'll start here.

I think it is possible to prove that no gods exist, not even the one you've described. Let's work from a more basic building block.

Does god exist?

That is the question, and "god" means the one you accept. So...

Point #1: Reality is everything that exists. Everything that exists is part of reality. Furthermore, there is only one reality, not two or more. And reality is real. There is not one reality for you and another one for me. We might each perceive things differently, we might think about things differently, we might live much different experiences. But "reality" is the same for everyone. Agreed?

Point #2: If god exists, then "he" is part of reality. Even if he exists within a supernatural realm, that supernatural realm is also part of reality. If there is a heaven and hell, that is also a part of reality. Maybe not the natural realm, but part of "everything that exists," which is reality. Agreed?

Point #3: If god exists in reality, then he exists independent of what you or I or anybody else thinks. It cannot be true that he exists for your neighbor but not for you. Each person might be right or wrong in their view of god, but if god really does exist, then he exists as a part of reality and not a figment of someone's imagination. Agreed?

That's enough for now.

~ zynner

[Samildanach]

Its actually incredibly simple. A god could become anything completely, however all the god in the past has to do is wish to revert to a god at some point in the future before he does his rather crappy transformation act. Then he can be both a turd in the present and return to Godhood when he chose in the past.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Samildanach Its actually incredibly simple. A god could become anything completely, however all the god in the past has to do is wish to revert to a god at some point in the future before he does his rather crappy transformation act. Then he can be both a turd in the present and return to Godhood when he chose in the past.

What you posit is still not an all powerful god. An all powerful god could be the turd and as well as a lamp post, a pile of trash, a booger on the floor, whatever and be god at the same time simultaneously. I lack the imagination to concoct all the combinations and permutations that god could be and still be god at the same time. And because of this god is logically a nonsensical concept.

Starboy

[Flip Jackson]

Sorry my response took so long, but here is the short of it.

#1-We experience things differentlly, but there is only one reality. I think I agree here.

#2-If God exists, he is part of the reality. Sounds logical to me.

#3-If God exists in reality, then He exists independent of what anyone thinks about Him. Fair enough.

I agree with your points so far, but don't see where this is headed. I look forward to a further explanation. Sorry this is so brief, but I don't have much time left on my break.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Sorry my response took so long, but here is the short of it. #1-We experience things differentlly, but there is only one reality. I think I agree here. #2-If God exists, he is part of the reality. Sounds logical to me. #3-If God exists in reality, then He exists independent of what anyone thinks about Him. Fair enough. I agree with your points so far, but don't see where this is headed. I look forward to a further explanation. Sorry this is so brief, but I don't have much time left on my break.

If we are talking about a God in this matter, then he is less than a spirit than he is a concept. If we're talking about a concept:

Then if God were in reality, even if no one believed in him, he would exist.

However, if God were not in reality, and just a concept at that, if everyone believed in him, God still exists.

This is because God is a concept. Our struggles to put God as a "real" diety have utterly failed, as no one has seen God. This has been quoted in the Bible: "No man has ever seen God."

[Flip Jackson]

We are kind of discussing God as an entity or being, not just a concept. This means that whether or not anyone believes, He would still exist as an entity.

Of course as a concept, He exists whether he is an actual entity or not. he livesin the minds of those who believe. However, Zynner is trying to show why God cannot exist beyond a concept.

I would disagree about your claim that no one has seen God. many people have said they have seen God, and you can't be sure of who is honest and who is not, even if you sdon't believe any of them.

While your scripture did come from the Bible, so did the scripture that says "Moses(I think) talked to God face to face." This is one of those errors in the Bible. Both don't seem to be able to be true. I would be concerned if my only resource was the Bible.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Flip Jackson We are kind of discussing God as an entity or being, not just a concept. This means that whether or not anyone believes, He would still exist as an entity. Of course as a concept, He exists whether he is an actual entity or not. he livesin the minds of those who believe. However, Zynner is trying to show why God cannot exist beyond a concept. I would disagree about your claim that no one has seen God. many people have said they have seen God, and you can't be sure of who is honest and who is not, even if you sdon't believe any of them. While your scripture did come from the Bible, so did the scripture that says "Moses(I think) talked to God face to face." This is one of those errors in the Bible. Both don't seem to be able to be true. I would be concerned if my only resource was the Bible.

It is fun to say things like he loves all, especially those who love him, or he lives in the minds of his believers, or have faith and you'll see miracles. Yeah, real cool, but you need to look deeper than the literal meaning. Do you guys ever reason with what you say? Like when you don't quote the Bible and yet make a holy statement, do you guys ever reason it, or think about why it should be so? Like maybe why God only lives in the minds of the believers? Or why God makes us have faith in him to "see" anything? Or why God waited billions of years to "seed" the Earth with two imperfect beings, knowing full well they would make mistakes and thus sin? Why do you never question, and only follow?

Back to your 3rd statement, about people seeing God, I have this response:

You say there are many who claim to have seen God, and true, I cannot deny them that claim. So therefore you assume they are correct, or are indifferent.
Now many others claim that these people are wrong, that they cannot see God. These people are just as valid and can also not be proved wrong. We must therefore assume it is also correct to not be able to see God, or be indifferent.
The only logical reasoning to the subject of seeing God is being indifferent to those who claim its (not) possible. It cannot be used either way, as it is useless in debate and proving statements..

But yes, another one of those contradictions. There are just so many.

[zynner]

Flip:

OK, so we have:

(1) Reality exists and includes everything.
(2) If god exists, he exists in reality.
(3) If god exists, he exists independent of what any person thinks.

We agree on those points.

I'll continue...

Identity -- Each thing that exists has a particular unique set of attributes, which can be called its "identity." We distinguish one thing from another thing by its unique identity (a horse is not a car, which is not a chair). Agreed?

Senses -- Humans perceive reality through our 5 senses (sight, sound, taste, smell, touch). We use our senses to perceive things in reality. Agreed?

Concepts -- Humans have the ability to form concepts, which are abstract ideas. We sense reality through our senses, which give us the foundation to form concepts. For example, we see a car. Each kind of car has different attributes (size, style, color, etc.), but we still call each one a "car." If we see a Mercedes and a Toyota, we use our senses to perceive that the Mercedes and Toyota both exist. We also form a concept that, although these two entities are not exactly the same, they are still both a "car." The idea that they are both cars is an abstract idea. So, humans can form concepts that are abstract, which are ultimately linked to our senses, which are grounded in reality. Agreed?

Logic -- Logic is a structured thought process, originally identified by Aristotle, that we all use to understand ideas and arrive at conclusions. Using logic, we can perceive reality through our senses, form abstract concepts that are derived from our perceptions, and organize them into a method of thinking that gives us the ability to arrive at conclusions about our perceptions and abstract ideas. It is the ability to use this process of thinking that allows us to gain "knowledge." Agreed?

~ zynner

[Zealot]

Quote by: Rave7pt0 There seems to be a few stages of belief in God that I've noticed. First there's blind faith without consideration. Then there's the realization that the very idea is rediculous. Then there's the realization that the idea that there isn't a God is rediculous. Then there's the search to make it all fit. It's a very natural progression, but let me ask you this: do you believe that anything you thought of when you were 10 held any intellectual weight? If you knew nothing about spirituality, would you take the word of a 10 year old? That's exactly what you did. I hope you can see that when you were 10 your mind wasn't nearly mature enough to make a call like that... I think you're clinging onto something that seems right without looking deeper.

Tis a fool who says: "there is no God".

Zee

[Starboy]

Quote by: Zealot Tis a fool who says: "there is no God". Zee

And it is also a fool that says there is when there is no more reason to proclaim the existence of your god then there is to proclaim the existence of all the others.

Starboy

[Ghumanto]

In Koran ( the Islam's holy book ) - Allah ( GOD ) said - do not hate the time , because I'm time ( please ignore my bad interpretaion ).
Perhaps this could be an interesting point to discuss about God's validity ?
Physics says singularity - does it relates to above point ?

[Flip Jackson]

Soccer, I will be brief with you because I doubt you really care how I answer. I haven't made many of the claims you accuse me of. I have questioned my beliefs, and use plenty of reason to when I think about why I live the life I do. Stop using me as a scapegoat to vent your annoyances on.

And your logic used to show that no one has seen God is rather weak. I didn't state with certainty that anyone had or had not seen God. You stated, as fact, that no one has seen God, then you say that testimonials are a poor way of proving statements. You contradicted yourself when I claimed the possbility that someone could have seen God.

[Flip Jackson]

Zealot, your statement is an insult and utterly worthless in this debate. I don't mind you posting at all, but make your posts worth reading.


Zynner:
After looking through your definitions and examples, I can't find any point I disagree on. Although I would like to propose an addition to the senses, I think that those five alone leave something lacking. I think there is another kind of internal sense. A "feeling" you might say. This would be the way we feel during different emotions, illnesses, or maybe if we have that "gut feeling." I guess you could call it intuition, or maybe an emotional or spiritual sense. Take your pick. But I believe that people create concepts and use logic based on this intuitive sense sometimes, and it doesn't seem to fall in with the other five.

If this point is not important, then please continue.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Yes, I have a lot of "evidence" for my beliefs. This doesn't mean that everyone that hears the evidence thinks the same thing I do. People interpret evidence differently depending on what they want to see. If you'd like I could briefly list what I consider evidence of my beliefs, but this post is already kinda long. I feel that some deity exists, but that isn't my standard of His existence. I think I have more to go on that just a feeling.

Actually this could be interesting. If you are game I would be interested in your list if you did the following:

1) Create the list. Keep this list intact. We will use it for later comparison.
2) Go through the list and apply the double standard test. Look at each listed "evidence" and ask yourself if you would find that to be convincing if it were for used for a god of some other religion that you do not believe in.
3) After trying to make an honest assessment of just how convincing the "evidence" actually is strike those that do not make the grade.
4) Then present the list here as a before and after. It will be interesting to see how many items of "evidence" are left.

This by itself would be interesting. Now if you are game for one more experiment perform the inverse of the double standard test.

1) List all the religions that you know of that you would consider different from your own religion and that the advocates of that other religion would say that you were not one of them.
2) For each entry on the list describe what it was that made you discount that religion.
3) Go through the reasons why you discounted that religion and apply those reasons to your religion. Indicated if your religion would have failed or passed.

Starboy

[Flip Jackson]

You ask for a lot of time and study, which I am not completely opposed to, but it may take a while to give you a reasonable answer. Also, I think that other religions may have some of the points that I consider evidence of my religion, but may not have the entire "collection" that seems necessary.

I could use one point to explain why I believe my religion and others with that point, but then some of the others will be excluded on a later point.

I am honestly considering the challenge, but I make no promises. I have a lot of stuff on my hands right now, and I like to keep some of my leisure time for more enjoyable things than doing an in depth search of every religion I can think of.

[Sean]

Quote by: Zealot Tis a fool who says: "there is no God".

Zealot knock off the insults and focus. This is a debate site...