God Does Not Exist Because .........

[Logjam]

BTW: I read that Stephen Hawking said that he was glad that he is as injured as he is. He said that if he had a normal, healthy body that he wouldn't have the time to think that he has now. He's also the most popular lecturer in Cambridge.....Or is it Oxford? Can't recall. He drives that wheel chair through traffic.

Hawking is quite a guy. His IQ (yeah, a old term, I know) has got to be well over 200. Right up there with Shakespeare.

[Starboy]

Quote by: zynner However, each entity has an identity. Aristotle figure this out in his Law of Identity: A is A. Very important. A turd is a turd, not something else. A god is a god, not something else. A turd is not a god because a turd has certain properties and gods do not. A chair is not a hotel. Each entity has its own properties. A turd is not a god, but a god can sure be one hell of a turd when he throws a hissy fit. ~ zynner

My point was that once you allow an all powerful being into your scheme of things then a turd is no longer a turd. It could be a god. I could be a god. Anything could be a god. It is the logical equivalent of division by zero. It is not allowed because it results in nonsense.

An all powerful being can be A and ~A and as can be shown in symbolic logic, when you have A and ~A you can prove anything like B and ~B are both true.

Starboy

[Logjam]

Quote by: Starboy My point was that once you allow an all powerful being into your scheme of things then a turd is no longer a turd. It could be a god. I could be a god. Anything could be a god. It is the logical equivalent of division by zero. It is not allowed because it results in nonsense. An all powerful being can be A and ~A and as can be shown in symbolic logic, when you have A and ~A you can prove anything like B and ~B are both true. Starboy

I understand. Since God Is, and since He is everything, then he has to be a turd. If God is omnipotent, all knowing, all powerful and infinite then nothing is not God. (sorry about the double neg.) God is existance, God is everything. You want proof of God? then touch your nose. Do you feel that bumpy thing? Since you are a part of existance, then you are also a part of God.

To understand God you need to divorce yourself from the image of the gray haired old man flying around in the clouds. He's more than that. And if you use my definition you cannot refute the existance of God.

I don't think many Christians would agree with me. Do you?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Logjam I understand. Since God Is, and since He is everything, then he has to be a turd. If God is omnipotent, all knowing, all powerful and infinite then nothing is not God. (sorry about the double neg.) God is existance, God is everything. You want proof of God? then touch your nose. Do you feel that bumpy thing? Since you are a part of existance, then you are also a part of God. To understand God you need to divorce yourself from the image of the gray haired old man flying around in the clouds. He's more than that. And if you use my definition you cannot refute the existance of God. I don't think many Christians would agree with me. Do you?

Certainly one can draw that conclusion but so what? God is everything and god is nothing. A distinction that is no distinction is of no importance. Other than giving some kind of mental buzz to people that are easily amused it doesn't illuminate anything.

Starboy

[Flip Jackson]

Look, I will only continue on after this post if we change gears a bit. I am tired of honestly giving answers to what I believe, then being called a moron or all the other demeaning names that come. I will discuss, but only if we discuss or debate, and cut the flaming and insulting. Nothing gets done that way.

To make you all happy, I will give you a very clear definition of what I think God is. No more talking about how I have changing beliefs or psuedo gods.

Simply put, God is an exalted man. He lived on some planet, probably like ours. He was obedient enough to gain salvation, meaning He became as God. He has a spirit and a body, like we do, but His body has been ressurected already and now had a greater "glory" than ours. He cannot die, nor does His body even have blood in it, though it does have flesh and bone. He is not some unknowable mass that is everywhere and nowhere. He is a being with a body.

He is also His own being. Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate entities. They have the same purpose but aren't the same being. God is God and only God. Certainly not a turd.

I don't think God has anyone "above" Him, per se, but He is bound by what he will and will not do. He will not force anyone to make a certain decision, though He probably could. It is like this. I can murder someone. I can kill myself. But I will do neither because it is not my nature. He is honest and fulfills His words, so He is also bound by the promises He has made with man. When we obey certain points of His doctrine, He must do His end of the bargain.

I will go more detailed so there is no confusion. He is all loving, but that doesn't mean he will change the rules part way through the game. He said that if we followed His rules in this life, we would have eternal life. If that changed now, He would be a liar, and He wouldn't be just. He can't give salvation to people that have strictly listened to Him, and to people that have blatantly ignored Him. This would be unjust. Though He loves us all and wants us to be happy, but He won't change the rules for even one person. He knows all that we have done, and all that we will do, because he knows our nature. He knew us before we were here.

Any other questions? If not, I suppose you can do your thing. But I will not continue in this thread if I don't see some more respect. Whether or not you find my beliefs foolish, I haven't condemned any one or any idea. I expect the same in return.

[zynner]

Quote by: Starboy My point was that once you allow an all powerful being into your scheme of things then a turd is no longer a turd.

Why?

[zynner]

Quote by: Flip Jackson I am tired of honestly giving answers to what I believe, then being called a moron or all the other demeaning names that come.

That's how atheists are treated, as well.

He is a being with a body.

If he is a physical entity, then he must be located someplace. Where do you think that is?

He will not force anyone to make a certain decision

If I put a gun to your head and tell you to cluck like a chicken, are you doing it of your own free will? I say no. Likewise, a god that "allows" you to do what you want but holds an eternal gun to your head just in case you don't do as he says is not allowing free will. True?

He is honest... He is all loving...He said that if we followed His rules in this life, we would have eternal life...

So, people have "free will" and if they choose something this loving god does not want, then there is eternal hell or just no eternal life? If it were a reward for eternal life, that would be one thing. But if it is eternal hell for not going along, then that is the gun to the head.

Though He loves us all and wants us to be happy

If he is honest, is he honest with himself? If he is loving and wants us all to be happy, then he is either lying to himself (not possible) or not loving (not possible).

How do you explain evil if god is both honest and loving? Because evil -- especially that imposed on people from the outside, such as natural disasters -- makes people unhappy. He should know this. How can he want people to be happy, yet know they are in many cases unhappy?

He knows all that we have done, and all that we will do, because he knows our nature. He knew us before we were here.

Are you speaking of the nature of man or each individual's nature?

Any other questions? If not, I suppose you can do your thing. But I will not continue in this thread if I don't see some more respect. Whether or not you find my beliefs foolish, I haven't condemned any one or any idea. I expect the same in return.

Well, your first post to me wasn't too kosher. But, it's not a big deal.

A few general questions:

Would you say that you have adopted someone else's view of this god or is it something you have figured out for yourself?

If the latter, would you say this is a creation you have made or is this an actual, physical god out there in reality somewhere?

If it is something real, then how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Do you have any evidence for it?

If you do not have any evidence, but you "just know" or "just feel" it is so, then by what standard would you expect me to prove this god does not exist?

Would I be able to prove to you that this god does not exist if I said, "I can just feel that he does not exist. I know it from my gut," would that be acceptable proof to you that I had proven this god does not exist?

If not, then by what standard would you accept my proof? A sound, valid logical argument or something else?

~ zynner

[Flip Jackson]

I know atheists can be treated poorly, but I personally don't resort to that. I apologize for my snippy first reply to you, but we get a lot of people that come here and say "God doesn't exist, and you are stupid for thinking so" with no real reason except to goad and insult. Your post didn't seem to have substance and appeared to be a useless one liner until you further explained.

Heh, I will have to say "I don't know" about God's whereabouts. I don't reallt think that is relevant to what I need to know.

Well, this may be hard to explain, but I don't feel God forces us in any way. I think the consequences were in place before He was exalted, and He just tells us what will happen. And is hell a punishment, or lack of a reward? I think most people won't be eternally punished, but might not become as God either. This could be lengthy, so I will stop there for now.

I have to get off now. My dad needs the computer. I will address the rest later.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Logjam Lately it's been discovered that the universe is not slowing down as it expands. Rather its expansion is accelerating. So it seems unlikely that the expansion of the universe will slow, contract and then implode.....

Umm... yeah... I know. That's what my "Well guess what" link stated. Said "Scientists Discover Universe expanding" right in the headline... didn't even have to read the article.

Quote by: Flip Jackson Look, I will only continue on after this post if we change gears a bit. I am tired of honestly giving answers to what I believe, then being called a moron or all the other demeaning names that come.

Yeah, I'm sure that must be frustrating. But, hey, it could be worse. You could be an atheist like us, and have spent your entire life listening to men of God and millions of your own fellow citizens go on about how >>we<< were the moral equivilent of murderers, child molesters, rapists and communists, that >>we<< were completely immoral - by definition - and that >>we<< deserved to suffer unspeakable agony for all eternity because we didn't believe what you did. But are we bitter about it?... naaaaaah.

But yeah, I agree, I'd prefer it if we could stop calling each other morons and such... ok guys?

Quote by: zynner That's how atheists are treated, as well.

What he said.

.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Flip Jackson I apologize for my snippy first reply to you, but we get a lot of people that come here and say "God doesn't exist, and you are stupid for thinking so" with no real reason except to goad and insult.

Yes, I'm afraid there's been a lot of that, which I don't like at all. My suspician is that some of these non-believers posting here find it a rather heady experience to appear to be the majority voice for once and simply get carried away.

I understand that you haven't been doing any atheist-bashing, Flip, but I suspect there's a whole lot of pentup resentment floating around. For my part I'll try to enforce some civility when I'm here, and I think most of the discussions have been reasonably civil.

.

[Starboy]

Quote by: zynner Why?

I explain it in previous posts in this thread.

Starboy

[zynner]

Quote by: Starboy I explain it in previous posts in this thread.

Yeah, I see your point. An all-powerful god could take any form, leaving the theist wondering what is what.

That doesn't negate the Law of Identity, though. A turd is still a turd. It's just that some things that look like turds might really be gods. The turds would still be turds and the gods would still be gods -- that look like turds. I've seen clouds that look like dogs. Doesn't mean they are not clouds.

But it does leave the theist with a problem. I see that.

Of course, the "solution" is simple: God cannot look like a turd !!!!

LOL

~ zynner

[Jack]

I'd sure hate to attend services in a church that worshipped turds.
"Hey Father, swing that censer over here some more, would 'ya?"

[Sonart]

.

I knew a Rabbi once who was kind of a... never mind, let's not go there

.

[Jack]

I have a feeling the congregation wouldn't mind a bit if you smoked or farted during the service. They might even really appreciate it.
"Dude, I just got baptized over at the First Fundament-al Church of the Holy Turd. For some reason I feel like shit."

[Starboy]

Quote by: zynner That doesn't negate the Law of Identity, though. A turd is still a turd. It's just that some things that look like turds might really be gods. The turds would still be turds and the gods would still be gods -- that look like turds.

Not if the god was all-powerful. It would be a turd. But to pull it off it might have to make all turds god. But to hear the supernaturalists talk about god, frankly I am not sure I can tell the difference between god and a turd.

Starboy

[zynner]

Quote by: Starboy Not if the god was all-powerful. It would be a turd.

No, it would still be a god with turd-like qualities.

However, if it really turned itself into a turd, then it would no longer be a god, as it would lose its powers.

An all-powerful god could fool anybody into thinking that it is anything else. But it would still be a god, still have that ability to do whatever. It's just that nobody would realize it.

But to hear the supernaturalists talk about god, frankly I am not sure I can tell the difference between god and a turd.

Umm...maybe...turds are not the creator...something had to create the turd...and...

Wait! I've been down that road before.

LOL.

~ zynner

[Starboy]

Quote by: zynner No, it would still be a god with turd-like qualities. However, if it really turned itself into a turd, then it would no longer be a god, as it would lose its powers. An all-powerful god could fool anybody into thinking that it is anything else. But it would still be a god, still have that ability to do whatever. It's just that nobody would realize it.

Errrrr, an all powerful god that could not be the turd is not all powerful.

Starboy

[Samildanach]

You guys are talking about some really fucked up shit. :) :) :)

[zynner]

Quote by: Starboy Errrrr, an all powerful god that could not be the turd is not all powerful.

Yes, an all-powerful god could actually become a turd. However, once it performs this "miracle," it becomes a turd and is no longer a god.

An orange cannot also be an apple. A god cannot be something other than a god while it is still a god -- no matter what form it might take.

A god could seem to be a turd and we might never know it. That's because we wouldn't have all the information necessary, as the turd god has fooled us.

But once a god actually is a turd, which it could become, it would then become an actual turd and have only turd qualities. It would no longer have god qualities.

So, it cannot be both a real turd and a real god at the same time in the same moment. Impossible.

~ zynner