God Does Not Exist Because .........

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Soccer, you need to chill a bit. You want details, you got em. You asked for this one bud. No men are not more obedient than women. I never said that. If you must know, I think women tend to be more obedient and better people in general. There is a female God. I told you God is married. That means that He probably still is. We believe you get married for eternity, not until "death do us part." You wanna know why we never here about a "Mother which is in heaven?" Think about how people treat God and Jesus. They use their names as swear words, curse God for how poor their lives are, and claim it is stupid to believe in such beings. If God was willing to marry this person for eternity, why would He subject Her name and identity to the same criticism and slander that we put on Him. Imagine how parents must feel when their children say they hate them? More clarification. This has been a long cycle. Who knows when or if it started. Man's spirit is created. I admit I don't know how. He goes through a veil and forgets the life he led as a spirit in God's presence. This is necessary to see how the man will act without sure knowledge of God. He lives life. He dies and the spirit and body separate for a time. They are reunited at resurrection, then he is judged. Those who were obedient to the knowledge they had, and lived good lives, become exalted and eventually become as Gods. They will be able to have their own Spirit children. Those who lived well have eternal marraiges with the spouses they chose in this life. Those who lived poorly will be disappointed to see that they have no connection to their kids and spouses. I can't give you an exact view of heaven, or what we will do. I believe that heaven will be much like our lives now. Plants, animals, and all that jazz. I'm sorry if the obvious implication was sex, but reproduction doesn't have to involve sex. I don't know how He made us. But He did reproduce in a sense. He made us, who can become as He is. This is reproduction, is it not? I guess I should say that I know He is male not because of how He now creates us, but because He was male before He was God. Gender is eternal. And, once again, the adjective "dumb" means next to nothing. It is a belittling way to say "I disagree." I have a lot to base my beliefs on whether you believe it or not. You believe as you will, but I have that same right, and I know why I stand where I do. There are certain things that I don't have a way to explain. How he made us or the earth. That doesn't matter in religion. That's what science is for. Religion tells us what happened not how. Now get off your high horse and stop thinking that only non religious people know why they live the way they do. I can go on for pages and pages about the details of my beliefs and why I think they are correct. I give brief answers because I know you aren't interested. I know what I believe and what I base it on. Just because you don't agree doesn't make my idea "dumb." Nor do you have any idea how detailed my beliefs really are or my reason for believing them.

"I don't know how He made us"
"I admit I don't know how"
"There are certain things that I don't have a way to explain"

That sums up your argument--I don't know. I like you Flip, but I can't stand this crap. I constantly feel the tension of whether or not I should persuade you not to believe this way or if I should just tell you it's wrong and say it's ok though.

Mother God? Where is the documentation, other than the concept of such a God in your head? I have thousands of questions, too many of which you cannot answer, and most of which you've already covered that you cannot answer. Why do you wish to believe something so off track from anything else concieved before? Is it the need for self distinction and separation from the religious conformity of regular society? Is it a personal issue? I mean, a Mother and Father God? And kids? Where's Fido? I can't hold back the sarcasm but this is a joke.

You are basically proving your statements in one and ONLY one way: God reproduces somehow, I don't know how, but he does. The proof of this is that we are here. "Is it not?"

I mean this is senseless, you're using your own belief to further prove your belief.

Call my beliefs dumb all you want. Just tell me why and back it up. Only those who are in deep quesiton and mental revolt find name calling on their beliefs offensive. I find it fun, because I can tell others why they are wrong. And sometimes I'm wrong, which is just as good, because then I know what's right. But there's only one answer, and yours is completely off. You gave me a fairy tale. What substance is the soul, or heaven, and how is reproduction committed between Gods, and how does God create things, and if God creates things then why does he need reproduction to create us?

If I'm on a high horse, then your six feet in the ground. I'm giving you the shovel here, so start digging yourself out.

[Flip Jackson]

Zynner first. I think revelation is knowledge given us by God. It can come in many ways. Intuitions, visions, epiphanies, dreams, and from actions of other people.

The only one that may not include reason would be intuition. We often act on intuition because we feel we need to. You have to be careful about acting before thinking though. The others all require reason either before hand or afterward. Epiphanies come when we are already trying reason and another idea comes to us. We then apply the idea logically to our dilemma. Dreams and visions, if you believe in them, both require information from the senses. I think sometimes you get answers through other people.

Well, I'm not sure what else you want.

[Flip Jackson]

Son of Belial. I think God is married because He was a man who went through a trial like ours. My religion teaches that to be perfected, we have to be married. The partners kind of "complete" each other, since men and women see things different ways. So for Him to be exalted to "God status" I guess you could say, He had to have been married in His earth life.

I don't know if I would call myself polytheist. The best way I can explain it is this. There are probably a number of people who have been exalted, each then creating Spirit children. So do a number of Gods exist? Probably. Do I worship them all? No. The way I see it, the only God that really matters to me is the one who created me. I beleive there is a Heavenly Mother, but there is a reason God doesn't say much about her. Christ is the Son of God, but His will is the same as God's. In a sense He is subordinate to God, but it doesn't really matter since they have the same goal for us.

Before God was God, He was a man like us. We can become like Him. That's all I got for ya. Any more questions?

[Flip Jackson]

Soccer, you said I was being to vague, so I decided to give you something to chew on.

I knew you wouldn't want to hear all that so I had kept my answers concise. I also knew you would think it a crock, but now you can't say I don't know what I believe and what I worship.

The things I don't know are the "how"s. My argument isn't that I don't know. My argument is that the things I don't know aren't important right now.

Let's look at this reasonably here. We currently undersatnd less than 10% of matter, and that is a generous number. The rest is dark matter and energy, which we have virtually no knowledge of. Let's say there is a spiritual matter that makes up some of that dark matter. We don't know how to see it yet. Let's say there is a God, who made our spirits. Even if someone tried to explain how a spirit was made, how could we understand the idea at all, until we understood the form of matter itself? That's why "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer for some of the "how"s. Do you really think we could comprehend how a higher being made us or the earth?

As far as the "Mother God" and documentation. Most religions believe there were prophets in the past, or some beings that spoke to God or gods. We believe such people still exist, which sets us apart. That is where some of the information comes from.

And since when does the fact that an idea isn't the norm make it wrong? You asked how I could believe something so off track from anything else before thought of. The best answer would be that the concept came from God and not man's invention or interpretation. hence the reason it is so different. The number of people who accept an idea is irrelevant in showing the idea's validity.

Honestly, this view of God makes more sense to me than any I have heard. Why would some being that is everywhere and nowhere create us? Why would it care about us? Why would it judge us to heaven or hell? If the God is a person like us, only in a more perfect form, then His motivation for children would be similar to ours. Children, first of all, help us grow. Second, there is a joy and satisfaction watching them grow, especially if they do so well. Finally, I bet most kids are glad their parents had them. The idea of an unknowable, unidentifiable mass seems more like a story to me than a higher human.

I am not trying to prove anything accept that some people know a lot about the being they worship. I have attempted to prove nothing else to you. I was just giving you my beliefs.

You asked about the soul. The soul constitutes our spirit and our body. Our Spirit would be made of a sort of spiritual matter that we don't understand. Heaven is also probably made of a combination of spirit and earth matter. I don't have a sure answer. Only specualetion.

Keep in mind that any time I say "I don't know," I probably don't feel the point is important. My goal in religion is to find out what I need to do, and to better myself, so that I can enjoy this life and the next. For questions like "How did something happen?" or "What is this made of?" I turn to science. If God is worried about our salvation, why would he waste time trying to explain how He made the earth. Besides, a lot of people would rather look for the answer than have it handed to them.

I feel no need to dig myself out of anything, nor do I think that I am telling a fairy tale. And if you want to try to convince me that my view is wrong, you are going about it entirely the wrong way. Insults and frustration only tend to plant people more strongly in the idea that you disagree with. If you don't change your style of debate, then your actions will have the opposite effect of the one you want. If you are really interested in helping someone change their idea, you have to do it in a milder more logical tone, one that shows more concern than irritation. Just a thought. You have to understand people before you will understand the way they think and why.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Son of Belial. I think God is married because He was a man who went through a trial like ours. My religion teaches that to be perfected, we have to be married. The partners kind of "complete" each other, since men and women see things different ways. So for Him to be exalted to "God status" I guess you could say, He had to have been married in His earth life.

Jews believe the same thing. You have to be married to be a Rabbi.

I don't know if I would call myself polytheist. The best way I can explain it is this. There are probably a number of people who have been exalted, each then creating Spirit children. So do a number of Gods exist? Probably. Do I worship them all? No.

You're a henotheist by definition.

The way I see it, the only God that really matters to me is the one who created me. I beleive there is a Heavenly Mother, but there is a reason God doesn't say much about her. Christ is the Son of God, but His will is the same as God's. In a sense He is subordinate to God, but it doesn't really matter since they have the same goal for us.

How does the Son relate to the Mother and Father? Is he literally the child of both Mother and Father, or just Father?

Before God was God, He was a man like us. We can become like Him. That's all I got for ya. Any more questions?

So there was no big creation... I mean... who created the man that became God?

[Flip Jackson]

Henotheist, huh? Thanks for the new word. Hadn't heard of that one. Had to look it up. I guess I could be considered a henotheist. Although I don't believe that every other God or Goddess that people believe in exists, but I do believe there are other Gods.

I will tell you what I know about the relationship. To my understanding, Christ was the first Spirit child created by God. I bet the Mother helped in the creation of Spirit children, but that is just a personal idea. Christ was also the only being created with God's assistance in this life. I believe in the virgin birth, but have no idea how to explain it. I don't really know much about the Heavenly Mother's relationship and part in all of this. As I said before, we have almost know information about her, but know She exists because of our belief that marraige was necessary to become as a God.

No big creation? Not sir ewhat you mean there. Our God still created us and a number of other worlds, some probably with other people. He probably created our entire Universe. There are probably other Universes, too. However, God used to be a man, and He was created by His God. Sounds weird, I know, but kinda cool, too. Its like a big cycle. I don't know if it had a start. If it did, I couldn't tell you when or how. Of course, you have probably heard that God is eternal. We beleive God is eternal in that He always existed in some form, but not necesarrily as God. We believe we have also always existed in some form or another, but that gets kind of hard to explain.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Henotheist, huh? Thanks for the new word. Hadn't heard of that one. Had to look it up. I guess I could be considered a henotheist. Although I don't believe that every other God or Goddess that people believe in exists, but I do believe there are other Gods.

Yep, as long as you believe other gods exist but only worship or really acknowledge one of them, you're a henotheist.

I will tell you what I know about the relationship. To my understanding, Christ was the first Spirit child created by God. I bet the Mother helped in the creation of Spirit children, but that is just a personal idea.

So Christ was fully spirit? Or was simply created as a spirit and placed into a human form?

Christ was also the only being created with God's assistance in this life. I believe in the virgin birth, but have no idea how to explain it. I don't really know much about the Heavenly Mother's relationship and part in all of this. As I said before, we have almost know information about her, but know She exists because of our belief that marraige was necessary to become as a God.

Just for the record, how much of this is your personal opinion and how much of it is your denomination's beliefs?

No big creation? Not sir ewhat you mean there. Our God still created us and a number of other worlds, some probably with other people. He probably created our entire Universe. There are probably other Universes, too. However, God used to be a man, and He was created by His God. Sounds weird, I know, but kinda cool, too. Its like a big cycle. I don't know if it had a start. If it did, I couldn't tell you when or how. Of course, you have probably heard that God is eternal. We beleive God is eternal in that He always existed in some form, but not necesarrily as God. We believe we have also always existed in some form or another, but that gets kind of hard to explain.

That was what I was trying to determine. There was no initial Creation in which he was God, since he was originally a man. You should read the book "Job: A Comedy of Justice," because it has similar ideas to what you've expressed. There are different gods over different worlds, and the God of this world has a God over him, etc.

[zynner]

Flip and LTB,

I think I can make this issue of revelation easy.

You say revelation is a means of knowledge (in one way or another).

OK.

I just had a revelation that revelation is NOT a means of knowledge.

Agreed?

If not, explain.

~ zynner

[Flip Jackson]

That's not a very good argument. You are trying to disprove the sense, or whatever you want to call it, by means of that sense. That, in itself, proves revelation.

Think about it. If you see a road sign that says "you can't see," that doesn't mean your eyes aren't actually recieving the information from the sign. Your eyes have to be giving you information for you to even see the sign.

Same with hearing. If someone tells you "your ears can't give you knowledge," you know they are wrong because your ears picked up the sound that told you that you couldn't pick up sound.

They are all just false statements. You can't disprove a sense WITH that sense. A revelation discounting revelation means nothing. That is like saying my reason tells me that reason doesn't exist.

[Flip Jackson]

Son, most of what I have told you are the beliefs of my church, either taught or implied. A couple of things are my ideas of what could be possible based on my religion. If I put one of those thoughts in, I usually say "I think."

I will give a better outline of what beliefs are actually the church's later, but I have to get back to work. I will also address the other questions.

[zynner]

Flip,

Can you prove or disprove anything based on revelation?

If so, prove it -- using revelation to do so.

~ zynner

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Logjam Did I say otherwise? Your combative tone presupposes that I want to fight over this subject. I don't. I don't care what you believe. It means little to me. Nor did I say what I believe is necessarily right. As I said, "Who am I?" To answer my question I'm just a guy musing about the cosmos. However, I disagree with you when you make the declarative statement that there absolutely is no God. You cannot say that and maintain credibility. The fact of the matter is, neither you, nor I know for certain that there is a God or not. We just have an opinion. Either one of us could be right or wrong. There may even be middle ground here. If God is the cosmos, which I believe He is, then He's a very complex dude, and you and I have no idea what He is, or isn't.

Logjam, I did spent lot of time in going through all the pages, right from p -2 post 17, where in I tried to write my feeling that there cannot be a separate manfested or abstract God than Universe. It was given in gist form only. Getting no comments from any member, I remained silent all along. Later discussion did not appeal me,but on seeing your concept of God, which most of the debators have not understood well; I could see it is very very close to my concept. I can tell confidently, your concept is very near to reality. I have discussed my concept of God on some other thread, which you might have seen!!

I am bit tired now, so would post my concept of God in detail later. You may refer my post no.17 of this thread meanwhile! I would be too happy to include answers to any questions on my post.

[Flip Jackson]

Zynner, yes things can be proven or disproven through evealtion, but only by the one that experiences it. You aren't treating this subject fairly.

Things can be proven with sight, right? But only by those who see the object in question. Things can be proven by sounds, buy onyl if you hear the sound, not by someone telling you about it.

You are asking me to do something that is impossible. Even if something is proven to me by revelation, I can't just transfer that over to you. Just like I can't transfer anything I have heard, seen, smelled, or felt.