Morality and Religion

[ryanatau]

A lot of theists use moral arguments against atheists: How do you know what is right and wrong without god? More fundamentally, without God there is no morality. In response it is common to hear atheists say that theist only pick and choose from their book what is to be moral and cannot know which set of morals to choose. However, I think theists have a more fundamental problem with Divine Command Theory (DDT). The argument is very common: Are actions moral by fiat or does God pronounce what is actually right?

I don't think a theist would want to answer in the first way because then morals are arbitrary except for getting into heaven and atheist are no dangerous because they have no religion, they simply will not go to heaven. Also, it makes God look pretty bad for punishing people for no reason. Finally, God could one day change his mind and say what we do now is wrong and what we call "evil" is good.

The other argument is that God tells us what is actually right. (I don't want to get into what this says about God--that he is not all powerful etc.). However, in this case it means that God has some reason to profess this morality (the proliferation of life or whatever), which means an atheist should be able to find this morality using reason. And if morality is reasonable, then any reasoning person would follow it. Then the problem is not in the belief of God, but in trying to instill reason in people.

Also, this is where the atheist argument that theist cannot know which moral code to follow actually becomes more powerful. If morality is based on reason then an atheist would have a better position because he or she can justify their morality; where a theist would only be able to point to scripture, in which not all can agree upon.

Just to point out, so this debate does not go off topic, I am not trying to disprove God. Also, this does not have to be theist vs. atheists because a theist may accept a rational version of morality, and I think they generally do. But I want to know what theist and atheist think about this: Is morality really an argument for why people should accept religion (i.e. is religion practical whether God exists or not simply because it gives us morals? I have heard theists argue this before.). I think there are far better arguments on both side then we generally hear: origins and ethics.

[yourwrong]

No god being morally correct or not is not a good a argument of whether a god exists it just decides whether you should serve the god. Atheists just use the argument of morality because the main reason they want god to exist is so the evil will perish and the good will be awarded. So if you can get a theist to think god is immoral then he may have less faith and less reason to believe in him. Same with theists they try to appeal by emotion and get more followers by saying if you don't believe in god you will lose your morality and if god didn't exist then nothing is right and wrong. Which is dumb because why can't you have morals without god? I believe some things as right and wrong because 1. genetics , 2. my upbringing , and 3. reasoning.

[Jack]

Many morals are nothing more than rules we non-believers usually call ethics that permit a society to operate more efficiently. Not lying, not stealing, treating others fairly and honestly, all attempt to limit or eliminate those behaviors that disrupt social cohesion. Religious morals include elaborations on basic social morals (ethics) that are particular to that faith's beliefs.

[ryanatau]

Quote by: Isherwood Many morals are nothing more than rules we non-believers usually call ethics that permit a society to operate more efficiently. Not lying, not stealing, treating others fairly and honestly, all attempt to limit or eliminate those behaviors that disrupt social cohesion. Religious morals include elaborations on basic social morals (ethics) that are particular to that faith's beliefs.

I agree, god is not needed to find morality. Using God to prove morality actually creates problems (which I think are clear above). Basically, I was trying to say that many theists say without religion morality is unknown, but this creates a far bigger problem. Saying morality is evident irrespective of God is a far better argument.

[derek]

I agree..... god is not necessary for morals....

and I don't think god should be used as a rational reason why a certain moral is relevant. If you think the moral was handed down from god, you should believe that it would make sense. Give us those reasons as to why the morals are relevant.... not just "god said so"

[Osborn F Enready]

I personally think the various "organized religions" detract from morals.

[Jack]

Isn't it amusing how it's called "organized religion" when in reality it's a mess of disorganized splinter groups, none of whom agree with each other?

[Osborn F Enready]

Isherwood said: Isn't it amusing how it's called "organized religion" when in reality it's a mess of disorganized splinter groups, none of whom agree with each other?

Indeed. It couldn't be more of a false label. Organized segregation of beliefs, and division of mankind would be more accurate.

[Technosoul]

The Jewish bible writers just adopted morals that were already estabished standards in society or in idealistic philosophy.

Stoneing people on the street is no longer the moral way to establish a justice system. Having slaves is no longer viewed as moral in our culture. In my opinon killing people in wars that do not amount to self defense is not moral. But Samiel thought otherwise. Eating pork on Sunday is not immoral anymore.

Building a freeway with taxes allows the unemployed to steal from the workers. Moral or immoral? Taking the name of God in vain is no longer immorality punishable by death.

[Athena]

Quote by: yourwrong No god being morally correct or not is not a good a argument of whether a god exists it just decides whether you should serve the god. Atheists just use the argument of morality because the main reason they want god to exist is so the evil will perish and the good will be awarded. So if you can get a theist to think god is immoral then he may have less faith and less reason to believe in him. Same with theists they try to appeal by emotion and get more followers by saying if you don't believe in god you will lose your morality and if god didn't exist then nothing is right and wrong. Which is dumb because why can't you have morals without god? I believe some things as right and wrong because 1. genetics , 2. my upbringing , and 3. reasoning.

Well the bible does condone slavery, and its governing system is through kings and hierarchy of authority. The bible says it is okay for Jews to own slaves which are passed on from one generation to the next, and tells Hebrews to give non Hebrews. food they have been ordered by God not to eat. This clearly is not do unto others as you would have others do to you. It is ethnocentric, and their God was not the God of all people, but was exclusively their God. And their God was not the only one to give people morals. While the Greeks were intent on secular moral judgment. The theist argument that without their particular religion and belief in God, people would not have morals, just is false.

However, only highly moral people can have liberty, without authority above them, and in the US democracy that morality is suppose to come from secular reasoning, after education in Greek and Roman classics, the humanities and more modern philosophy. That is why the Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacy and a torch for enlightenment.

[Athena]

Quote by: Isherwood Many morals are nothing more than rules we non-believers usually call ethics that permit a society to operate more efficiently. Not lying, not stealing, treating others fairly and honestly, all attempt to limit or eliminate those behaviors that disrupt social cohesion. Religious morals include elaborations on basic social morals (ethics) that are particular to that faith's beliefs.

The Little Red, The Fox and the Grapes, The Little that Could, are all moral stories. You read the story to the kid and ask what is the moral of that story. The moral is what caused the effect. Moral thinking is not exclusively religious thinking which depends on superstition, and fear of punishment and hope of reward, but is reasoning through what gets good results and what gets bad results. This secular morality was developed by Athenians, the same people who gave us democracy. There is a direct tie between morality and democracy. We govern ourselves to get good results.

[banko]

So where do morals come from if not from a religion. Now there is the belief that christianity borrowed heavily from pagan religions, and then there is greek gods, egyption, native north american, aztecs, ect. All of these had a set belief system that dictated how humanity was to live. So did morals come from these early religions and we have just evolved them and modified them as we change? I don't think you need the christian god or any other god to have morals but I always have to ask, where did they start? Was it a natural evolution based on the theory that we have evolved from animal to man? During this evolution process did our morality evolve?

[Osborn F Enready]

Techno said: Having slaves is no longer viewed as moral in our culture.

HA! Depends on who you ask.

Many "religions" and "religious people" still support slavery, just not in the same sense you and I usually associate with slavery.

What is using force to enforce a "subjective moral code" if not slavery?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Athena Well the bible does condone slavery, and its governing system is through kings and hierarchy of authority. The bible says it is okay for Jews to own slaves which are passed on from one generation to the next, and tells Hebrews to give non Hebrews. food they have been ordered by God not to eat. This clearly is not do unto others as you would have others do to you. It is ethnocentric, and their God was not the God of all people, but was exclusively their God. And their God was not the only one to give people morals. While the Greeks were intent on secular moral judgment. The theist argument that without their particular religion and belief in God, people would not have morals, just is false. However, only highly moral people can have liberty, without authority above them, and in the US democracy that morality is suppose to come from secular reasoning, after education in Greek and Roman classics, the humanities and more modern philosophy. That is why the Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacy and a torch for enlightenment.

And Liberty is in the image of a woman - unconditional mothering for all the children under the enlightenment of that mysterious book. French hisotroy or background (they built it) might provide details of what the artist who made the statue of liberty had intended it to represent, they also shipped one off to Japan.