Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Athena · Jun 26, 2007, 11:59 am

It appears Christians believe that without Jesus dying for our sins, no one would have a chance at immortal live. If you believe this is true, can you explain how it works?

ZNFYRH · Jun 26, 2007, 12:36 pm

Athena

I think I can explain it.

Without Jesus, each person is tainted with sin. There was no means to redeem themselves.

Then Jesus comes along and says that not only will he die for his own sins, but he will accept and take on the sins of every human in the entirety of human history, past and present. Thus his extreme punishment and going to Hell after dying on the cross.

Jesus could do this because he truly believed he was divine and believed that he would still go to Heaven for how he lived. The story goes that he was right.

Because Jesus already suffered and died for your sins, he set up the way for you to go to Heaven. The idea is that if you accept Jesus into your heart and try to live according to his example, even though he already died for your sins, he will accept his death as valid penance and you will die without sin.

Hylife · Jun 26, 2007, 01:26 pm

close.. except he was himself without sin and took on all sins on the cross for us.

and Jesus didn't suffer "hell" in the place (if you believe it is a physical place) of hell. He suffered it on the cross. He descended into hell after the punishment on the cross kind of like a victory walk to let Satan and all those in hell know they've lost.

Your final error is that no one can except Christ; God chooses us.

"For while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." To paraphrase.

But still pretty good for an unbeliever ZNFYRH..

ZNFYRH · Jun 26, 2007, 01:29 pm

Actually... Jesus did have sin. He was born with Original Sin, just like everyone else.

He also tried to live the way he did and even that wasn't enough.

According to the stories, Jesus did go to Hell. He had to.

When he entered Hell, he basically entered and was there for two days. When he ascended from Hell, he took with him those who lived by God's word but could not accept Jesus as their savior.

Absolved from their sins, they returned to Heaven and Jesus, to fulfill the prophecies, returned to his body.

There's more to Christianity than what is in the Bible.

Hylife · Jun 26, 2007, 01:56 pm

If there's more to a story than what's in the Bible, it's not Christianity.

I could care less what your atheistic stories tell you.

SoylentGreen · Jun 26, 2007, 02:05 pm

I think the main point wasn't that he died for our sins but that after 3 days he came back and walked among the living, his resurrection.
All other religions have the good sense to say when your dead your dead, but Christianity is the only religion where you don't stay dead.
Jesus through the resurrection. offers eternal life.
This appeals to christians and there morbid fear of death.

ZNFYRH · Jun 26, 2007, 02:07 pm

Hylife

Congratulations. You are the second ignorant member of Volconvo to call me an atheist. I'm not an atheist.

The Bible is the principle work of Christian documentation. There are other works that describe religious history that have been accepted by Christianity. The entire history of the choirs of angels, the origin and nature of Satan, all of them originating in other documents and being accepted into Christianity.

Why don't you look into the history of the Bible and Christianity and see that the religion was constructed by men in a debate and council, not dictated to them by God.

Hylife · Jun 26, 2007, 02:13 pm

The Bible should be the PRIMARY source of Christian doctrine, nothing else. I didn't call you an atheist, either; I called your "stories" atheistic.

ZNFYRH · Jun 26, 2007, 02:17 pm

You misspeak and are correct at the same time.

You are correct in that the Bible is indeed the primary source.

But you misspeak because I think you mean it should be the "sole" source.

Either way, go check your sources and verify they are valid.

Last I checked, my Bible in the oldest Latin wasn't authored or published by God.

Whether or not you believe my answer, it is the complete story of why Jesus can die for our sins.

ZNFYRH · Jun 26, 2007, 02:23 pm

By the way, I noticed your earlier ignorance as well:

Quote:

close.. except he was himself without sin and took on all sins on the cross for us.

Incorrect. He was born with Original Sin.

Quote:

and Jesus didn't suffer "hell" in the place (if you believe it is a physical place) of hell. He suffered it on the cross.

That's what I said. Don't repeat someone at the same time you think you're contradicting them.

Quote:

He descended into hell after the punishment on the cross kind of like a victory walk to let Satan and all those in hell know they've lost.

No, he descended into Hell because he had all the sins of all mankind. "Victory Walk" is prideful. He went to Hell just like any other human (from his mother's side) and then rose from Hell just like any other god (from his father's side).

Quote:

Your final error is that no one can except Christ; God chooses us.

Except? This part of your statement makes no sense.

The fact that you feel the need to correct someone on points like those and include that little touch of derision makes me think you aren't much of a Christian. Awfully Proud of you.

sdbest · Jun 26, 2007, 02:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

The idea is that if you accept Jesus into your heart and try to live according to his example, even though he already died for your sins, he will accept his death as valid penance and you will die without sin.

Actually, it's not necessary--according to the Christian Protestant tradition--to live according to Jesus's example. To have everlasting life, all that's necessary is that you accept Christ as your savior, as the "way."

You can be the most morally vile human being imaginable, wreak havoc and suffering on all around you, and still enjoy all the benefits of Heaven and Eternal Life as long as you accept Christ.

Christianity is not a moral philosophy, despite the fact there are some moral utterances in the Bible, and some made by Jesus.

Regards
S.

Hylife · Jun 26, 2007, 03:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

By the way, I noticed your earlier ignorance as well:

Quote:

Incorrect. He was born with Original Sin.

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Quote:

No, he descended into Hell because he had all the sins of all mankind. "Victory Walk" is prideful. He went to Hell just like any other human (from his mother's side) and then rose from Hell just like any other god (from his father's side).

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

He descended into hell to "preach" to those there, showing his victory.

Quote:

Except? This part of your statement makes no sense.

I don't know what that was about..

Oh; I think that should have been "accept".

We can't accept God, only God can accept us.

Quote:

The fact that you feel the need to correct someone on points like those and include that little touch of derision makes me think you aren't much of a Christian. Awfully Proud of you.

I..yeah not even going to respond to this.

gallo · Jun 26, 2007, 03:27 pm

The number of sects and cults that call themselves and have called themselves "Christian" number in the thousands. Each one claims/claimed to be the "true" religion. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.

Battig1370 · Jun 27, 2007, 10:14 am

Quote:

Quote by: Athena

It appears Christians believe that without Jesus dying for our sins, no one would have a chance at immortal live. If you believe this is true, can you explain how it works?

Jesus did not die for our sins, but He die so we may inherit eternal life.

Saying that Jesus died for our sins is like saying, He died for our self-centredness, our selfishness, our greed, our lust for power and so on.

It is not written anywere that Jesus said, "I died for your sins" Jesus got executed because of mans sin.

Zhavric · Jun 27, 2007, 10:28 am

Yes, Athena, more or less that's what Christians believe. They believe this because they've been indoctrinated from childhood or an emotional trauma to believe this to be true. It's the number one selling point of Christianity.

Battig1370 · Jun 27, 2007, 10:32 pm

When they says that Jesus died for our sins, are they saying that Jesus died for our self-centredness, for our selfishness, for our greed, for our lust for power, for our pride and so on?

Hylife · Jun 27, 2007, 10:53 pm

he died because of them, not "for them". He died for us. so if you want to get all technical "because of" is better terminology than "for"..

Battig1370 · Jun 28, 2007, 08:55 am

Quote:

Quote by: Athena

It appears Christians believe that without Jesus dying for our sins, no one would have a chance at immortal live. If you believe this is true, can you explain how it works?

'A certain lawyer stood up and tested Jesus saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" The answer is given in Luke 10:25 -37.

derek · Jun 28, 2007, 10:14 pm

I thought Jesus was killed because he made certain people mad and because it was such a "no no" to call yourself God in his culture.

Battig1370 · Jun 29, 2007, 08:47 am

Yes you are correct, they decided to execute Jesus because he called Himself the son of God, and that was a no no.

Jun 26, 2007, 11:59 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Athena Iconoclast Posts: 5,077	true or false? It appears Christians believe that without Jesus dying for our sins, no one would have a chance at immortal live. If you believe this is true, can you explain how it works?

Jun 26, 2007, 12:36 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Athena I think I can explain it. Without Jesus, each person is tainted with sin. There was no means to redeem themselves. Then Jesus comes along and says that not only will he die for his own sins, but he will accept and take on the sins of every human in the entirety of human history, past and present. Thus his extreme punishment and going to Hell after dying on the cross. Jesus could do this because he truly believed he was divine and believed that he would still go to Heaven for how he lived. The story goes that he was right. Because Jesus already suffered and died for your sins, he set up the way for you to go to Heaven. The idea is that if you accept Jesus into your heart and try to live according to his example, even though he already died for your sins, he will accept his death as valid penance and you will die without sin. IT'S A BOY!!

Jun 26, 2007, 01:29 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Actually... Jesus did have sin. He was born with Original Sin, just like everyone else. He also tried to live the way he did and even that wasn't enough. According to the stories, Jesus did go to Hell. He had to. When he entered Hell, he basically entered and was there for two days. When he ascended from Hell, he took with him those who lived by God's word but could not accept Jesus as their savior. Absolved from their sins, they returned to Heaven and Jesus, to fulfill the prophecies, returned to his body. There's more to Christianity than what is in the Bible. IT'S A BOY!!

Jun 26, 2007, 02:07 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Hylife Congratulations. You are the second ignorant member of Volconvo to call me an atheist. I'm not an atheist. The Bible is the principle work of Christian documentation. There are other works that describe religious history that have been accepted by Christianity. The entire history of the choirs of angels, the origin and nature of Satan, all of them originating in other documents and being accepted into Christianity. Why don't you look into the history of the Bible and Christianity and see that the religion was constructed by men in a debate and council, not dictated to them by God. IT'S A BOY!!

Jun 26, 2007, 02:17 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	You misspeak and are correct at the same time. You are correct in that the Bible is indeed the primary source. But you misspeak because I think you mean it should be the "sole" source. Either way, go check your sources and verify they are valid. Last I checked, my Bible in the oldest Latin wasn't authored or published by God. Whether or not you believe my answer, it is the complete story of why Jesus can die for our sins. IT'S A BOY!!

Jun 26, 2007, 01:26 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Hylife Molten Ash Posts: 137	close.. except he was himself without sin and took on all sins on the cross for us. and Jesus didn't suffer "hell" in the place (if you believe it is a physical place) of hell. He suffered it on the cross. He descended into hell after the punishment on the cross kind of like a victory walk to let Satan and all those in hell know they've lost. Your final error is that no one can except Christ; God chooses us. "For while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." To paraphrase. But still pretty good for an unbeliever ZNFYRH..

Jun 26, 2007, 01:56 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Hylife Molten Ash Posts: 137	If there's more to a story than what's in the Bible, it's not Christianity. I could care less what your atheistic stories tell you.

Jun 26, 2007, 02:05 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
SoylentGreen Hot Lava Posts: 2,285	I think the main point wasn't that he died for our sins but that after 3 days he came back and walked among the living, his resurrection. All other religions have the good sense to say when your dead your dead, but Christianity is the only religion where you don't stay dead. Jesus through the resurrection. offers eternal life. This appeals to christians and there morbid fear of death.

Jun 26, 2007, 02:13 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Hylife Molten Ash Posts: 137	The Bible should be the PRIMARY source of Christian doctrine, nothing else. I didn't call you an atheist, either; I called your "stories" atheistic.

Jun 26, 2007, 03:27 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
gallo Homo sapiens Posts: 1,980	The number of sects and cults that call themselves and have called themselves "Christian" number in the thousands. Each one claims/claimed to be the "true" religion. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;... --From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli passed unanimously by the Senate 1797

Jun 27, 2007, 10:28 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Zhavric SUSPENDED (1 Week) Posts: 3,571	Yes, Athena, more or less that's what Christians believe. They believe this because they've been indoctrinated from childhood or an emotional trauma to believe this to be true. It's the number one selling point of Christianity.

Jun 27, 2007, 10:32 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Battig1370 Molten Ash Posts: 106	When they says that Jesus died for our sins, are they saying that Jesus died for our self-centredness, for our selfishness, for our greed, for our lust for power, for our pride and so on?

Jun 27, 2007, 10:53 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Hylife Molten Ash Posts: 137	he died because of them, not "for them". He died for us. so if you want to get all technical "because of" is better terminology than "for"..

Jun 28, 2007, 10:14 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
derek What do you think? Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 24	I thought Jesus was killed because he made certain people mad and because it was such a "no no" to call yourself God in his culture.

Jun 29, 2007, 08:47 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Battig1370 Molten Ash Posts: 106	Yes you are correct, they decided to execute Jesus because he called Himself the son of God, and that was a no no.