Prayer doesn't seem to work...

[sdbest]

Christians and other religious adherents have two problems to overcome when dealing with people like me--"non-believers." The first is establishing with some reasonable degree of certainty that there is a god. And, the second is that the god is, in fact, as portrayed by their religion. Allah, for example, is a substantially different character than God.

Let's assume--for the sake of argument--that a Supreme Being exists, and that he/she/it created all Creation. Christians believe that by praying to "God" they or who they pray for will benefit from the prayer. However in a recent scientific study it turns out that prayer doesn't work. See What the latest prayer study tells us about God. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine and Log In Problems.

The $2.4 million, 1.7 million prayer, 6 hospital study found that "Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from [coronary artery bypass graft surgery] but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications." Prayer made things worse.

This is only one study, and it doesn't prove that a Supreme Being doesn't exist. But doesn't this suggest that the description of God that Christians offer is probably not very accurate? It doesn't appear that the Christian God answers prayers.

Regards
S.

[Clarence]

petition the Lord with prayer!? YOu cannoT petition the Lord with prayer!!

the soft parade.

On the other hand a couple of people prayed for me to help kick the nicotine. It was easy to do compared to anytime I've ever tried.

[improvident]

Assuming you believe in a higher.. supreme being.. Are you also stating that whatever prayer is given to that higher, supreme being.. WILL without a shadow of a doubt be answered the way you want it to be? If that was true.. then everyone would pray and ask for anything and everything they wanted.. and they would get it.. The world could essentially be perfect... And it cant be..

Prayer is Faith.. its a chance.. a slim one.. but a chance.. that it will be answered.. and for alot of people that small iota of hope.. is what powers them to continue living..

Therefore prayer will never be proved to work or not work.. because there will be things that people pray for.. and it seems there is no hope for it to be answered.. and it will.. and vise versa..

Trying to prove prayer to an Atheist.. or disprove it to a Christian.. is like yelling at a deaf man... No matter how loud you yell.. and how long you yell it.. he wont understand you

[sdbest]

Quote by: improvident Prayer is Faith.. its a chance.. a slim one.. but a chance.. that it will be answered.. and for alot of people that small iota of hope.. is what powers them to continue living.. Therefore prayer will never be proved to work or not work.. because there will be things that people pray for.. and it seems there is no hope for it to be answered.. and it will.. and vise versa..

Seems you've made a good argument that except for tiny minority of people who cling to a "small iota of hope" for the "[power]...to continue living" prayer is either a useless or unreliable activity. If you can't trust prayers, why bother?

Regards
S.

[Hylife]

You sit here and debate what Christians call prayer without understanding what it is we believe. You shouldn't go to God constantly in "prayer" with requests, especially not with things concerning physical matters. That's the here and now; we should be focused on the big picture.

I mean, take the Lord's Prayer, taught to us Christians by our main spiritual leader. Consider the parts:

Our Father In heaven,--Us communicating with God as in a Parent-Child relationship.

Hallowed be your name--asking that God's name remain spotless and Revered before the world, especially through us as representatives.

Your Kingdom Come--that faith (what Christ often refers to faith as) remain in us and come to this world

Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven--That God's omnipotent plan be put before ours and be done in our lives

Give us today our daily bread--the ONE and ONLY six word pettition asking God to give us the bare necessities (Not what we want) physically

Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us--that God not only forgive us of all the wrong we've done to him, but out of grattitude of that forgiveness we forgive the sins that others have commited against us.

Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil--that God help us steer clear from sin and that he would give Satan, the world, and our sinful flesh no power over us.

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In all these sections physical needs are only asked to be tended to ONCE, in SIX WORDS.

God's going to do what's best for us spiritually, and if that's dying of the worst, most painful form of cancer, then that's what we've got to live with. Prayers are always answered, just not always how we'd like them to be.

Also, when we go before God in prayer, it should be like a conversation. It doesn't have to be:

"Oh Holy, soverign Lord, God and Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, hear us now as we humbly come before you.."

NO!! It can be something like:

"Hey Dad, howsa goin? I had a kind of ruff day today and I wanted to talk to you about it.."

God wants us to come to him in all things "praying continuously" to quote him, not just when it's most convenient to us..

[sdbest]

Quote by: Hylife You sit here and debate what Christians call prayer without understanding what it is we believe. You shouldn't go to God constantly in "prayer" with requests, especially not with things concerning physical matters.

Hylife, your complaint shouldn't be with me, but with the thousands of Christians and church leaders who participated in the research. Obviously they took a different view of prayer than yours.

I'm just bringing you the news. Don't crucify me for that.

At any rate, the fact appears to be that some prayers don't work.

Maybe Christians should sort these differences out among themselves before they start "spreading the word."

Regards
S.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Hylife In all these sections physical needs are only asked to be tended to ONCE, in SIX WORDS.

True. And yet, physical gifts are asked for, and since millions of people are starving, they are not always granted. Are those millions of people not Christian? Do they not know the Lord's Prayer? Or is their prayer ineffective for some reason?

Quote by: Hylife God's going to do what's best for us spiritually, and if that's dying of the worst, most painful form of cancer, then that's what we've got to live with. Prayers are always answered, just not always how we'd like them to be.

That doesn't make sense to me. A prayer is a request, at least some of the time; you go on to describe prayer as a conversation with god, as a sort of meditation or confession; that I understand. But those sorts of prayers can't be seen as being answered, as there isn't any question. Perhaps one is asking for peace, and gets that peace? Any road, the sorts of prayers that one presumably makes when one is suffering are prayers for relief from the suffering. Those prayers are not answered. I cannot see an answer that is not an actual response to the request made as an answer; it would be akin to being asked for directions and getting the response "There's a family of ducks that live in that pond." It's nice to hear, but it's not an answer to the question. Similarly, if I am dying of a painful cancer, and I ask for relief from my pain and get, instead, spiritual peace, my pain hasn't been relieved, so my prayer hasn't been answered. If I ask why I have to be the one to suffer, and I get the answer, "Because god wills it so," I also don't believe my prayer has been answered -- that's the biggest cop-out in history.

Quote by: Hylife God wants us to come to him in all things "praying continuously" to quote him, not just when it's most convenient to us..

Why? As an omniscient being, he already knows what's going on; as beings with free will who are supposed to make choices, we shouldn't constantly be asking for help and advice. Why are we supposed to pray continuously?

[Qanda]

Don't be so quick to judge prayer as ineffective. Read this article:

David R. Hodge, an assistant professor of social work in the College of Human Services at Arizona State University’s West campus, has conducted an exhaustive meta-analysis on the effects of intercessory prayer among people with psychological or medical problems.

In other words, does God – or some other type of transcendent entity – answer prayer for healing?

According to Hodge’s study, “A Systematic Review of the Empirical Literature on Intercessory Prayer,” the answer is “Yes.”

“There have been a number of studies on intercessory prayer, or prayer offered for the benefit of another person,” said Hodge, a leading expert on spirituality and religion. “Some have found positive results for prayer. Others have found no effect. Conducting a meta-analysis takes into account the entire body of empirical research on intercessory prayer. Using this procedure, we find that prayer offered on behalf of another yields positive results.”

Hodge’s work will be featured in the March, 2007, issue of Research on Social Work Practice, a disciplinary journal devoted to the publication of empirical research on practice outcomes. It is widely recognized as one of the most prestigious journals in the field of social work.

Hodge noted that his study is important because it is a compilation of available studies and is not a single work with a single conclusion. His “Systematic Review” takes into account the findings of 17 studies that used intercessory prayer as a treatment in practice settings.

“Some people feel Benson and associates’ study from last year, which is the most recent and showed no positive effects for intercessory prayer, is the final word,” said Hodge, referring to a 2006 article by Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School that measured the therapeutic effect of intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients. “But, this research suggests otherwise. This study enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample sizes, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.

“This is the most thorough and all-inclusive study of its kind on this controversial subject that I am aware of,” said Hodge. “It suggests that more research on the topic may be warranted, and that praying for people with psychological or medical problems may help them recover.”

The use of prayer as a therapeutic intervention is controversial. Yet, Hodge notes that survey research indicates that many people use intercessory prayer as an intervention to aid healing, which raises questions about its effectiveness as an intervention strategy.

“Overall, the meta-analysis indicates that prayer is effective. Is it effective enough to meet the standards of the American Psychological Association’s Division 12 for empirically validated interventions? No. Thus, we should not be treating clients suffering with depression, for example, only with prayer. To treat depression, standard treatments, such as cognitive therapy, should be used as the primary method of treatment.”

In addition to his inclusion in the upcoming issue of Research on Social Work Practice, Hodge is widely published and has appeared on the pages of Social Work, Social Work Research, Journal of Social Service Research, Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, and Families in Society. He has also authored the book “Spiritual assessment: A handbook for helping professionals.”

ASU Public Affairs - Public Relations at the West Campus

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Qanda Hodge’s work will be featured in the March, 2007, issue of Research on Social Work Practice, a disciplinary journal devoted to the publication of empirical research on practice outcomes. It is widely recognized as one of the most prestigious journals in the field of social work.

Can we have a link to this publication with his analysis in it? What you have here is really just PR.

Quote by: Qanda Hodge noted that his study is important because it is a compilation of available studies and is not a single work with a single conclusion. His “Systematic Review” takes into account the findings of 17 studies that used intercessory prayer as a treatment in practice settings. “Some people feel Benson and associates’ study from last year, which is the most recent and showed no positive effects for intercessory prayer, is the final word,” said Hodge, referring to a 2006 article by Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School that measured the therapeutic effect of intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients. “But, this research suggests otherwise. This study enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample sizes, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced. “This is the most thorough and all-inclusive study of its kind on this controversial subject that I am aware of,” said Hodge. “It suggests that more research on the topic may be warranted, and that praying for people with psychological or medical problems may help them recover.”

So effectively, Mr. Hodge considered the Harvard study of 17 hospitals to be an insufficiently large sample, and broadened the study to include other studies. Why? Is there some question about the methodology of the Harvard study? I don't see the value of looking at multiple studies unless they all have the same validity and reliability, then they should have the same results. If they don't all have the same results -- and obviously they don't, since Mr. Hodge has found a different answer than has Dr. Benson -- then some of the studies are questionable. Adding questionable data to solid data in order to change the results is not good science, no matter how you dress it up as a "meta-analysis."

Quote by: Qanda “Overall, the meta-analysis indicates that prayer is effective. Is it effective enough to meet the standards of the American Psychological Association’s Division 12 for empirically validated interventions? No. Thus, we should not be treating clients suffering with depression, for example, only with prayer. To treat depression, standard treatments, such as cognitive therapy, should be used as the primary method of treatment.”

The same could be said of lollipops. Given my druthers, I know which I'd pick. But I accept that some people would like prayer as a part of their therapy, and they are welcome to it; I only question the value of allowing our personal beliefs be a means of setting medical policy.

[Qanda]

I couldn't get access to the actual study. The reason why I posted the article was not to demonstrate the efficacy of prayer, but only to point out that the jury is still out on the issue.

Regardless, I am sceptical that prayer, even if it works, would be amenable to scientific studies like that. If God really existed, I doubt he would be happy to be placed under the microscope.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Qanda If God really existed, I doubt he would be happy to be placed under the microscope.

What an emotional God he is!

[Lullaby Chainer]

More information here..

No Prayer Prescription -- [ PSYCHOLOGY ]: Scientific American

[Hylife]

Quote by: sdbest Hylife, your complaint shouldn't be with me, but with the thousands of Christians and church leaders who participated in the research. Obviously they took a different view of prayer than yours. I'm just bringing you the news. Don't crucify me for that. At any rate, the fact appears to be that some prayers don't work. Maybe Christians should sort these differences out among themselves before they start "spreading the word." Regards S.

I wasn't trying to attack you, I agree completely with the notion that Christians need to sort things out. If their were better Christians, there'd also be more of them.

(Not to say I'm better than anyone; I've probably negatively impacted people towards Christ as well.)

Quote by: CoffeeSaint True. And yet, physical gifts are asked for, and since millions of people are starving, they are not always granted. Are those millions of people not Christian? Do they not know the Lord's Prayer? Or is their prayer ineffective for some reason?

It's possible they're not Christian, but instead of assuming the worst, the most positive explanation (if they are Christian) is that it is better for their spiritual well-being. So they die of starvation. Bg deal when compared to an eternity of peace with God.

That doesn't make sense to me. A prayer is a request, at least some of the time; you go on to describe prayer as a conversation with god, as a sort of meditation or confession; that I understand. But those sorts of prayers can't be seen as being answered, as there isn't any question. Perhaps one is asking for peace, and gets that peace? Any road, the sorts of prayers that one presumably makes when one is suffering are prayers for relief from the suffering. Those prayers are not answered. I cannot see an answer that is not an actual response to the request made as an answer; it would be akin to being asked for directions and getting the response "There's a family of ducks that live in that pond." It's nice to hear, but it's not an answer to the question. Similarly, if I am dying of a painful cancer, and I ask for relief from my pain and get, instead, spiritual peace, my pain hasn't been relieved, so my prayer hasn't been answered. If I ask why I have to be the one to suffer, and I get the answer, "Because god wills it so," I also don't believe my prayer has been answered -- that's the biggest cop-out in history.

Yeah, because God wills it so, and because it's what;s best for you (if you're a Christian). Prayer isn't to get things. It's to attune us to the will of God, so that we can understand why things happen. For example, if you pray for a new car, God's either going to give it to you or not; through prayer, hopefully, he'll help you understand why.

Why? As an omniscient being, he already knows what's going on; as beings with free will who are supposed to make choices, we shouldn't constantly be asking for help and advice. Why are we supposed to pray continuously?

You are completely wrong about not asking for help and advice. We should ALWAYS be seeking God's guidance, asking him to help us. Also, God loves us, he wants to here what we have to say to him, and he wants to help us grow spiritually through communication.

[Nono]

My wife's a great pray-er. Far be it from me to scorn the practice, because it spares the practitioner the impression of being alone and helpless in a cold universe.

Remember that religion in the Kurt Vonnegut novel: The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent? That's closer to my own view, but there are no atheists in foxholes, as they say.

The wife's an Italian Catholic. They'll request divine intervention for the damndest things -- totally mundane (good weather for tomorrow's picnic, whatever).

I don't think this subject lends itself to rational discussion, from either point of view.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Hylife It's possible they're not Christian, but instead of assuming the worst, the most positive explanation (if they are Christian) is that it is better for their spiritual well-being. So they die of starvation. Bg deal when compared to an eternity of peace with God.

Very well, but that shows that prayers aren't always answered. They asked for bread, they got starvation; maybe that was the best thing for them (though I can't personally fathom why they shouldn't have bread, live another fifty years in peace and plenty and then go to heaven) but it wasn't actually an answer to their prayers.

Quote by: Hylife Yeah, because God wills it so, and because it's what;s best for you (if you're a Christian). Prayer isn't to get things. It's to attune us to the will of God, so that we can understand why things happen. For example, if you pray for a new car, God's either going to give it to you or not; through prayer, hopefully, he'll help you understand why.

Fair enough, but that isn't actually the representation of prayer being discussed here. The purpose of intercessory prayer is to accomplish something tangible: to potentially change the outcome of a person's illness by praying for God's mercy. It is not intended to give the person spiritual peace; as I said, if that is the purpose of prayer, more power to you.

Quote by: Hylife You are completely wrong about not asking for help and advice. We should ALWAYS be seeking God's guidance, asking him to help us. Also, God loves us, he wants to here what we have to say to him, and he wants to help us grow spiritually through communication.

If all we are supposed to do is ask for god's help and then do what he tells us, then it doesn't sound like we'll have much to contribute to the conversation. But I guess I just don't understand god's motivations.

[Jack]

Isn't the concept of intercessory prayer just a specific application of the concept of "The Power of Positive Thinking"?

[Hylife]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Very well, but that shows that prayers aren't always answered. They asked for bread, they got starvation; maybe that was the best thing for them (though I can't personally fathom why they shouldn't have bread, live another fifty years in peace and plenty and then go to heaven) but it wasn't actually an answer to their prayers.

I beg to differ; the answer was no. That may not be the answer they were looking for, but an answer all the same.

Fair enough, but that isn't actually the representation of prayer being discussed here. The purpose of intercessory prayer is to accomplish something tangible: to potentially change the outcome of a person's illness by praying for God's mercy. It is not intended to give the person spiritual peace; as I said, if that is the purpose of prayer, more power to you.

You can pray all you want, as long, hard, and often as you want for someone's physical well being, and God will do what's best.

If all we are supposed to do is ask for god's help and then do what he tells us, then it doesn't sound like we'll have much to contribute to the conversation. But I guess I just don't understand god's motivations.

Perhaps not..

[Clarence]

Is it rude to pray for people without thier consent?

[Hylife]

No!! Why would it be?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Hylife No!! Why would it be?

Because your asking supernatural forces to intervene in THEIR life.