What is great about Islam?

[Mia]

This is what Ayaan Hirsi Ali would like President Bush to answer.

I have kind-of come full circle in my feelings about this religion. The first I ever read about it was about the oppression or women and the brutality. I had no liking for it whatsoever.

Then I felt I learned that it is not quite that severe, the worst of it is in African nations, and says more about the nature of the people there, not the religion.

I'm told in Arab countries that the problem is some people perverting Islam, and those people just happen to be in power.

But at some point I have to look around and realize that in the 57 Muslim nations, there is a theme of autocratic rule, the repression or women, brutality toward all citizens, intolerance, corruption, and lack of ability to get along with even each other.

At some point some of the blame is going to have to come back onto Islam, is it not?

Islam mandates autocracy. Islam mandates that members of society correct one another, fight one another, force others to submit.

I used to argue that Christianity has some of the same mandates in the Bible as in the Quron. However, that is to be found in the Old Testament. There is no new testament to Islam. There is no new page of forgiveness and different mandates in how to treat others.

In Christianity, there is room for division of Church and State. In Islam, there is no such possibility. Islam can never create a peaceful nation without brute force - it's very core premise is that society completely reflect Islamic values, yet there will always be disagreement on what that is, hence perpetual war among its people.

Ali argues that the only thing that Islam does well is fight. She points out that the so-called civilizations of Islam in the past that advanced mathematics and such were not advancements by Islamics at all, but merely those of the peoples they conquered.

Besides a means to control, what good does Islam bring about?

[jascowhiz0]

This is a good read and explains part of Islam's problem.

Jihad and the Professors - article by Daniel Pipes

[Mia]

I was just reading in here that the true Islam is one of tolerance, peace, etc. Where is the tolerance for women being anything other than mindless servants? Where is the tolerance for ideas other than those in the Quron?

[tinybear]

Congratulations, Mia. You've finally seen the light. Islam is merely a means of control through brute force, fear and intimidation. Christianity used to be too. But Christianity moved on and underwent a process of civilization. Islam did not.

[improvident]

Would it be safe to say that jihad as we know it.. is not an offensive measure.. but rather a defensive measure.. that only we our selfs as big headed American Christians are to blame for?

Look at it this way.. our entire Culture goes against anything and everything Muslims.. and should be Christians are for. If jihad is nothing more than challenging ones self to be better in all aspects.. especially a religious one.. then can you blame them for revolting.. and trying to rid their countries of us.. Imagine if the tables were turned.. and some Muslim country invaded the United States and wanted to bring with it.. an entirely new form of government.. an entirely new for of economy.. Ideas.. morals... everything..And much of these new things go against what we morally and religiously consider right or just.. Would you and I not stand up for what we believe in and revolt? Or would we take a back seat.. and just let it happen..

I think rather than denouncing Islam for being stubborn we should look up to them in a religious and moral sense.. They have so much faith in their own religion.. be it old fashioned or not.. that they are willing to die.. and do die in the name of Jihad.. To better ones self religiously.. to make sure that their way of life is preserved for their children.. Perhaps they know that wherever America comes.. in its wake comes what they consider in their way of life.. sin.. pure evil sin.. To them.. giving in without trying.. could be kissing any chance of going to whatever they see as heaven for them selfs and their children.. and their children's children goodbye..

[Mia]

Quote by: improvident Would it be safe to say that jihad as we know it.. is not an offensive measure.. but rather a defensive measure.. that only we our selfs as big headed American Christians are to blame for? Look at it this way.. our entire Culture goes against anything and everything Muslims.. and should be Christians are for. If jihad is nothing more than challenging ones self to be better in all aspects.. especially a religious one.. then can you blame them for revolting.. and trying to rid their countries of us.. Imagine if the tables were turned.. and some Muslim country invaded the United States and wanted to bring with it.. an entirely new form of government.. an entirely new for of economy.. Ideas.. morals... everything..And much of these new things go against what we morally and religiously consider right or just.. Would you and I not stand up for what we believe in and revolt? Or would we take a back seat.. and just let it happen.. I think rather than denouncing Islam for being stubborn we should look up to them in a religious and moral sense.. They have so much faith in their own religion.. be it old fashioned or not.. that they are willing to die.. and do die in the name of Jihad.. To better ones self religiously.. to make sure that their way of life is preserved for their children.. Perhaps they know that wherever America comes.. in its wake comes what they consider in their way of life.. sin.. pure evil sin.. To them.. giving in without trying.. could be kissing any chance of going to whatever they see as heaven for them selfs and their children.. and their children's children goodbye..

OK, but what I'm asking is what is good about it? What is good about a religion that sees living outside of the dark ages sin? That human rights for women is sin?

Take Western civilization out of the picture. What about all the killing that goes on that has nothing to do with us or Israel? Because they are shia or sunni or from the wrong tribe?

[texasdave]

I find it amusing that those who so vehemently speak out against Christians who just TALK about sin have such a tendency to bend over forwards to cut Islam slack when it is blowing people up in the name of allah.

[Mia]

That is one of the things that Ali addresses - the extreme double standard. We ignore inmans violent criticism of the West, but say we're sorry every time a Westerner says something that hurts their feelings.

[Kuldeep]

Good about Islam is that it has kept Its followers united. Nobody has right to challenge what is said in Quron. So, I would say Islam has made its followers best desciplined lot.

[Mia]

But there is much disagreement among Muslims, and the order from the Quron to convert or kill those that would oppose it creates violent division among Muslims.

Also, the inability to challenge what the Quron says is at the heart of the social problems it creates, such as the subjugation of women, and inability to advance a society.

Finally, what Muslims have been disciplined to do is to blindly follow their faith, even when it interferes with basic human rights of themselves, and the freedom of others.

[Kuldeep]

Disagreement is among the factions but Islam as religion binds them well. Why should they bother for advancement of society? They have their set rules and content following them blindly. What is the problem?

Problem is for others, let them take appropriate remedy for that !!!

[tinybear]

Quote by: Mia But there is much disagreement among Muslims, and the order from the Quron to convert or kill those that would oppose it creates violent division among Muslims. Also, the inability to challenge what the Quron says is at the heart of the social problems it creates, such as the subjugation of women, and inability to advance a society. Finally, what Muslims have been disciplined to do is to blindly follow their faith, even when it interferes with basic human rights of themselves, and the freedom of others.

Exactly. Most of the Muslim world still resides in a bygone era (or what should be a bygone era). The rest of the world moved on and evolved.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Kuldeep Good about Islam is that it has kept Its followers united. Nobody has right to challenge what is said in Quron. So, I would say Islam has made its followers best desciplined lot.

Yep, disciplined, but at what cost? At the cost of blindly following what was the accepted norm centuries ago, i.e. no progress.

[shrike]

In Christianity, there is room for division of Church and State. In Islam, there is no such possibility. Islam can never create a peaceful nation without brute force - it's very core premise is that society completely reflect Islamic values, yet there will always be disagreement on what that is, hence perpetual war among its people.

Wow Mia I must say that your view changed drastically .Although I have much criticism toward contemporary Islam, I think like every ideology it could be taken to extreme and now we see it in countries like Iran and Saudia.
But like Christianity it could live in relative peace with secular state(Turkey for example).
Here read this article I found it very good
Special Report - No. 34

[rez]

Quote by: texasdave I find it amusing that those who so vehemently speak out against Christians who just TALK about sin have such a tendency to bend over forwards to cut Islam slack when it is blowing people up in the name of allah.

Sorry buddy people do not do that. You live in a disillusion world of ghosts, goblins, spirits, and genies. When people criticize magic thinkers they criticize all magic thinkers.

[lsbskins1]

Islam is no different than any of the other major religions of the world. The issues with violence and totalitatian rulers are not built into the religion, they are built into the geo-political landscape of the middle east. Try and remember where Christanity was in terms of religious toleration 600 years ago. That is how much longer we have had to come to terms with the overriding power of pagenism (ie, Roman Power and hegemony), reach some sort of power ballance (early Bysantine rule) and then our (Western Christianity) own period of domination. Is it that most people can not integrate the complexities of human institutions, religions, and technologies in their own minds. Why do you assume that a Muslim experiences the world in exactally the same way you do? Or an Arab? Why do you assume that you would react differently given similar circumstances? Islam is no more or less evil than any of the other religious traditions. Get over your western arrogance and try to appriciate the situation in all of it's complexity.

[Mia]

Quote by: shrike Wow Mia I must say that your view changed drastically .Although I have much criticism toward contemporary Islam, I think like every ideology it could be taken to extreme and now we see it in countries like Iran and Saudia. But like Christianity it could live in relative peace with secular state(Turkey for example). Here read this article I found it very good Special Report - No. 34

Turkey has almost been completely taken over my Islamics.

[Mia]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Islam is no different than any of the other major religions of the world. The issues with violence and totalitatian rulers are not built into the religion, they are built into the geo-political landscape of the middle east. Try and remember where Christanity was in terms of religious toleration 600 years ago. That is how much longer we have had to come to terms with the overriding power of pagenism (ie, Roman Power and hegemony), reach some sort of power ballance (early Bysantine rule) and then our (Western Christianity) own period of domination. Is it that most people can not integrate the complexities of human institutions, religions, and technologies in their own minds. Why do you assume that a Muslim experiences the world in exactally the same way you do? Or an Arab? Why do you assume that you would react differently given similar circumstances? Islam is no more or less evil than any of the other religious traditions. Get over your western arrogance and try to appriciate the situation in all of it's complexity.

I didn't say it is evil. I have done all anyone can do to appreciate Islam. I have read the Quron, I have read books written by authors sympathetic to Islam, I have read how everything, from their backwardness to their terroristic actions are the fault of the West, I participated for years on an Arabic discussion board, and I lived with a Muslim and had many, many discussions about all of these things.

Islam is inherently incompatible with democracy. 600 years won't make a difference in that. Muslims are taught that the Quron is Timeless, unlike Christians who are able to see that many things in the Bible were written in light of those current times.

That's not to say that many Muslims have not adapted in that way, but they are going against spiritual and national leaders to do so. On the whole, not a lot of advancement has taken place in Muslim nations, and every time it does, there is a powerful movement to reverse it.

My original question was not how does this threaten us? But what is great about this? What is great about a religion that teaches subjugation of women, refusal to advance, discourages critical thinking and discussion, encourages dictators and brutality.....what is good about that?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: tinybear Yep, disciplined, but at what cost? At the cost of blindly following what was the accepted norm centuries ago, i.e. no progress.

Agreed, there is practically no progress. While; others have progessed and became enemies of one another....what good of such progress !!

[Matt W]

Quote by: Mia Turkey has almost been completely taken over my Islamics.

The current governing party is mostly Islamic, but the main opposition party is secular...as is the army and the President. How is that 'almost completely taken over'?