Is life good?

[Captain Cardio]

On the whole, do you believe that life's existing on earth, is more a positive thing or a more negative thing?

More importantly, why do you think that?

Life is how the universe listens to Mozart.

Regards
S.

[improvident]

I dont personally think its good or bad.. its just.. life.. it cant be one.. and not be the other.. there is no possible way

[Thunder]

Life itself..the concept of being alive is good. However, the experiences one must endure can alter the goodness of life.

It depends on who you ask.

[SoylentGreen]

To quote Ned Kelly
Such is life

[Kuldeep]

Firstly what type of life you talking about? Secondly, good and bad are relative things.

In general meaning of life, life is both good and bad. It is life only which makes us distinguish between good and bad. Had there been no life, then no question of good or bad. Therefore, life conclusively is surely good so that we know what is good and bad !!!!

[Praxius]

It's a balance of both.

[Athena]

Quote by: improvident I dont personally think its good or bad.. its just.. life.. it cant be one.. and not be the other.. there is no possible way

I think here Socrates would argue for the good. The equation would be life is good. Destruction is bad. If life the good, were not greater than destruction the bad, there would not be life. So the answer to the question would be life is more good than bad. True death follows life, but there is usually time enough to reproduce inbetween.

However, if we were apes living an environment being destroyed, and therefore, we were threaten by extinction, bad would out wiegh the good.

Our future may soon become more bad than good, as global warming and increased populations so stress our water and food supply, there is a mass die off. I would say times of plague and war have been more bad than good, because of mass die offs.

Hum, I am concluding, if life is more good than bad, depends on where and when you live.

[Captain Cardio]

Alright to narrow this down:

If you were to take every moment of time that has happened, from the perspective of every sentient being that has lived so far on earth, (obviously according to your best perception of what has happened for everybody, you wouldn't know for certain) would you be left with a product that was more moments of negative feeling, or more moments of positive feeling?

Whether any individual experience is positive or negative, would be your best prediction of whether the individual experiencing it felt it as positive or negative.

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For instance, if you were to take the event of a killer killing and then being incarcerated, and to judge whether the overall experience of the judge, jury, lawyers, victim, victim's family, defendant, defendant's family etc.. as being more associated with negative feelings or positive feelings, you would have consider with your best perception, how everybody felt.

The judge might feel a slightly negative experience about it, knowing that he is just doing his job, but doesn't like how the person being sentenced could still be innocent.

The jury may find the overall process negative since they missed work and didn't get paid much, and had to sit there and listen to evidence they found unpleasant.

The lawyer on the plantiff's side might have found the experience entirely positive because he won the case.

The lawyer on the defendant's side might have found the experience a little negative, because he lost the case, but still got paid.

The victim probably had a very negative experience, having gone through the pain of dying.

The victim's family probably went through a very negative experience of having lost somebody they loved.

The defendant probably went through a negative experience, where he regretted killing somebody, and then knew he was going to spend time in jail.

The defendant's family probably went through a negative experience of having their loved one did something awful, and got sent away to jail.
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From this little analysis, we could say the process of murder and a trail, was more negative than positive, because more moments of pain than moments of joy were experienced.

If we took this approach to everybody in the world for time so far, would we be left with a perspective pie, of more good times being had, or more bad times being had?


Somethings you might want to consider in your picture, that I might consider in mine are:
Wars, love, joy of family and home, the holocaust, animal treatment, 3rd world poverty, equality or prejudice, teen angst, opression, liberation, the pleasure of success, the hurt of failure, birth of loved ones, death of loved ones, sex, injury, self-actualization, realization of a wasted life, sickness, health, depression, work, play. There are lots of things to consider, but how would the total experience of these measure in your perception of the world, equate? More moments of pleasure or more moments of pain?

[Captain Cardio]

Anybody want to answer, or is there something wrong with the approach I explained above?

[SoylentGreen]

I don't see any way of making an objective judgement about happiness.
What I see as a pleasant experience some may hate.
Your only guessing what those people in your example are feeling. There is no way to be exactly sure what the hapiness quotient is.
Nor is hapiness a continual state by the time i have gotten around to measuring all the people the first one might have changed
Even on a hypothetical level there is no general criteria that can be used to make the measurement.

[tinybear]

Whether or not life is good, you'd just have to make do until death takes us away. The meaning of life, therefore, is quite simple: be as happy as possible for as long as possible. :)

[Kuldeep]

The effect of life varies from person to person depending on how one takes it upon his mind. Incident wise again it is one's mind set, which would decide to what degree it was good or bad to him. Clearifying this point of mine, suppose I insulted two of friends in similar manner. Both reacted differently. One took it lightly as if I did nothing. But, second one reacted violently to extent that I had no go but, to offer my apology.

Similarly in example stated by C C individual's mind set is more important to estimate real good or bad felt by any of the subjects involved.

[Captain Cardio]

Soylent Green said: I don't see any way of making an objective judgement about happiness.

We aren't looking for an objective judgement, we are looking for your judgement, even if its subjective, of whether the world seems more bad or good to you, when you consider the idea of every experience in the universe.

Soylent Green said: What I see as a pleasant experience some may hate.

Yes, but we're taking our best guess of what things feel like from the perspective of somebody feeling them. While you may not enjoy hockey and other people would, we could easily understand that most people who play hockey on a regular basis, are enjoying it.

There are some things in human's lives, where on average (and ball park averages are all we need for this thought experiment) we can make an educated guess as to whether most people would enjoy it or not. Suceeding at something in life, on average, to the majority of people, is a positive experience for them. Torture or depression in life, on average, to the majority of people, is a negative experience for them.

Soylent Green said: Your only guessing what those people in your example are feeling. There is no way to be exactly sure what the hapiness quotient is. Nor is hapiness a continual state by the time i have gotten around to measuring all the people the first one might have changed Even on a hypothetical level there is no general criteria that can be used to make the measurement.

Captain Cardio said: (obviously according to your best perception of what has happened for everybody, you wouldn't know for certain)

Captain Cardio said: There are lots of things to consider, but how would the total experience of these measure in your perception of the world

Even if theres very limited information to work with, we're talking about in your understanding of the world, would your best guess be that more good has been felt or bad has been felt?

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: Captain Cardio Somethings you might want to consider in your picture, that I might consider in mine are:?

Here is some considerations based upon a view of the picture

Quote by: Captain Cardio Wars?

Good, they liberate the planet of people, and prove mans capacity for inventiveness to produuce more efficient and lethal ways of despatching each other

Quote by: Captain Cardio love?

Love is bad it twist the emotions of many to the point of causing wars.

Quote by: Captain Cardio joy of family?

Good, families bond together especially at wars ,wedding and funerals

Quote by: Captain Cardio and home?

Home is bad, it forces the mindset to protect a part of this jealousy of the home extends to zenophobic attitudes and may result in feuds

Quote by: Captain Cardio the holocaust?

Good,it gave humans chance to realise how well indoctronation and mind control that produces the fullest disregard foe compassion or emotion towards another human

Quote by: Captain Cardio animal treatment?

Good without treatment animals wpuld probably not survive, few animals can practice self healing.

Quote by: Captain Cardio 3rd world poverty?

Poverty is good for it reminds those of us with rich lives how well off we really are. it is unfair to consider the 3rd world only, I'm sure by looking hard enough we can find some excellent examples of poverty in our localities
,

Quote by: Captain Cardio equality or prejudice?

Equality is bad, it is dream state of a utopia that those with high liberals minds try to foist upon society with expectations and laws that eventualy burden everyone.
Prejudice is good, it shows a frim mindset, set in its ways with tolerance for other humans or faiths and often leads to violance or wars, thus further depletion of the population

Quote by: Captain Cardio teen angst,?

Good, rather that teenagers rid angst in their teens than take this stance in work or worse with thier own children

Quote by: Captain Cardio opression?

Very good, unless we see opression in any form how could we ever value the myth of freedom

Quote by: Captain Cardio liberation?

This is very bad, the liberation of someone makes them regard themselves completly different causing a eupohoria that can sway societies and even wole countires to the point the become destabilised and can be open for war

Quote by: Captain Cardio the pleasure of success?

Very bad, this causes more euphoria and makes someone think they are better than someone else, this often leads to violance and war

Quote by: Captain Cardio the hurt of failure?

This very good, for without the despair of failure how can we ensure in future we do not fail

Quote by: Captain Cardio birth of loved ones?

An overated experience which produces pain for a woman, and the male stood by with mixed emotions about the small creature they are both going to be responsible for
,

Quote by: Captain Cardio death of loved ones,?

Very good, it allows us to feel loss deep within our hearts and learn valuable lessons in avoiding attachement to other humans

Quote by: Captain Cardio sex,

Good in general, though very badly practiced by the majority due to the sad poeple who insist on sole monogonous relationships and partners

Quote by: Captain Cardio injury?

Good without hurt, how can we learn what its like to be incpacitated

Quote by: Captain Cardio self-actualization?

Bad for those who are selfish, good for those who've been under the
mantle of oppression

Quote by: Captain Cardio realization of a wasted life?

Good for without this how can they learn to contribute to their life and the
life of those around them

Quote by: Captain Cardio sickness?

good, seee injury

Quote by: Captain Cardio health?

Bad, for if we are healthy how can we empathise with those sick or injured

Quote by: Captain Cardio depression?

Very good, again if we cannot get into the pit of life now and again theres nothing to climb out of

Quote by: Captain Cardio work?

Very good it stops our minds from actively considering all of the bad things

Quote by: Captain Cardio play?

Very bad, it stops us from working and often leads to someone stealing your ball and thus a feud and more wars

Quote by: Captain Cardio . There are lots of things to consider, but how would the total experience of these measure in your perception of the world, equate? More moments of pleasure or more moments of pain?

from the above,the balance is certainly favouring life is good :) imo

[Captain Cardio]

I appreciate your responding, as nobody else seems to want to make a case, but I must say I strongly disagree with your assessment of the good or bad feelings associated with the elements of life listed.

Good, [wars] liberate the planet of people, and prove mans capacity for inventiveness to produuce more efficient and lethal ways of despatching each other

This isn't a positive or negative experience like the parameters of the assessment were talking about. This is looking solely at the good part of war, that it improves our ability to do combat. You have not included the perception of the millions of citizens and soliders alike, who die, suffer great pain, even torture, get permanently disabled, or need to deal with the devastating loss of loved ones. In terms of negative and positive experiences, hands down more negative experiences result of war. The only way war would be good in terms of negative or positive experiences, is if you believe war lets us live our lives in a way that creates enough joy for the populous overtime, to override the suffering of those hurt by wars devastation.

Love is bad it twist the emotions of many to the point of causing wars.

You claimed that wars are good, and then claimed that love is bad because it causes war. Forgive me for being critical, but it seems like you are trying to come up with counter-intuitive interpretations of things, rather than actually having well-thought out reasons for your opinions. I don't see love as being a major cause of war, at least since troy. I see greed, lust for power, lack of empathy or lack of awareness as causes of war, (at least as far as human shortcomings go, there are obviously more complicated politican reasons that stem from human shortcomings). Now love may not be a good thing anyway, since alot of relationships don't work out, and just as much pain might result as joy.

Home is bad, it forces the mindset to protect a part of this jealousy of the home extends to zenophobic attitudes and may result in feuds

The experience of people having homes to live in could be considered quite positive. People enjoy coming home at the end of the day, and having shelter and warmth. I don't believe there is much reason to think that the system of having homes in our society, is harmful or causes feuds. If it does, it is in the minority of cases that probably have much more influenctial factors contributing.

[holocaust] Good,it gave humans chance to realise how well indoctronation and mind control that produces the fullest disregard foe compassion or emotion towards another human

The experience of the holocaust, was hands down bad. Like war, people suffered, died, and lost friends and family. From your interpretation, for the holocaust to be a good thing, you would need to explain how it provided more joy to humanity as a whole, than it provided pain to those who suffered first hand.

[animal treatment] Good without treatment animals wpuld probably not survive, few animals can practice self healing.

I don't think you are aware of factory farming. The Meatrix Films A huge number of animals that live under our watch, suffer greatly.

Poverty is good for it reminds those of us with rich lives how well off we really are. it is unfair to consider the 3rd world only, I'm sure by looking hard enough we can find some excellent examples of poverty in our localities

More than half the world lives in severe poverty. Most people don't even think about it, so I don't think the fact that it might make some people feel lucky, is enough to balance out the pain of starvation, disease and infant death felt daily by the 3rd world. I think people in the developed world would be living just as happily if the 3rd world was developed to. The contrast of living conditions is not a good enough reason to feel happy, compared to the potential knowledge that everybody in the world, that even if they may have less, still has access to basic necessities.

Equality is bad, it is dream state of a utopia that those with high liberals minds try to foist upon society with expectations and laws that eventualy burden everyone. Prejudice is good, it shows a frim mindset, set in its ways with tolerance for other humans or faiths and often leads to violance or wars, thus further depletion of the population

I believe people feel more positively when equality is the rule, than when prejudice is the rule. While you may or may not have come up with some reasons to believe equality is bad and prejudice is good, those say nothing about the negative or positive experiences of the people actually involved.

[teen angst] Good, rather that teenagers rid angst in their teens than take this stance in work or worse with thier own children

This goes by the assumption that there is a period of angst in most human teens life, and that this is something to be gotten out of the way like chicken pox. I don't believe that is the case.

[opression]Very good, unless we see opression in any form how could we ever value the myth of freedom

I'm sure those being opressed have negative experiences as a result of opression. If it is simply a matter of contrast, why would we need constant opression. We are already aware that opressed peoples have existed in the past. Any instances of opression beyond the first to give us constrast, I would say would be hands down negative.

This is very bad, the liberation of someone makes them regard themselves completly different causing a eupohoria that can sway societies and even wole countires to the point the become destabilised and can be open for war

Liberation most of the time means an end to a form of suffering. I would say this is a good experience. I'm not sure that liberation causes war, so much as opression causes war. Even if liberation did cause war, you earlier said you thought that was a good thing.

[pleasure of success]Very bad, this causes more euphoria and makes someone think they are better than someone else, this often leads to violance and war

I think that is a very vague grounds for believing people feeling success is bad. Even if it were true that people's sense of accomplishment leads to war, you've said you believe war is a good thing.

[hurt of failure]This very good, for without the despair of failure how can we ensure in future we do not fail

The experience of failing is a negative one for the majority of people. Failing does not necessarily ensure that in the future the person will not fail again. It might crush them and desuade them from trying.

[death of loved ones] Very good, it allows us to feel loss deep within our hearts and learn valuable lessons in avoiding attachement to other humans

If you believe an attachment to a fellow human being is a bad thing, then you are the minorty, you can easily be aware that most people do not think that way, and so I don't think most people would consider a loved one dying a good experience.

from the above,the balance is certainly favouring life is good imo

life may be more good than bad, but it wouldn't be shown so from your above interpretation. We are not asking for whether things can be considered good or bad from one persons point of view, which you have clearly done. We are asking for whether the experiences attached to these ideas, to most people, feel good or bad. I'm sure you would agree that your opinion on these matters is only a belief of the minority of people. In terms of more good or bad feelings being had by sentient beings, that minority viewpoint is largely irrelevant.

I would spose a simpler approach than asking about specific elements of life would be, do we believe that all the pain and horror of life's existence, is overridden or balanced out, by the joy of our day to day lives?

[SoylentGreen]

In the end when you consider all the factors isn't it still better to exist than not to exist.
So life, even if things are bad at the moment. in general is good.

[Captain Cardio]

In the end when you consider all the factors isn't it still better to exist than not to exist. So life, even if things are bad at the moment. in general is good.

That's a good point.. I wonder though.. if the reason most people prefer to exist than not exist, is because they hope their situation will be better someday if they stick it out, rather than them ever actually believing for a long period of time, that their current living is a positive experience.

EDIT: Also people's preference to exist rather than not exist, might be an evolutionary survival trait. Really one's life could be more bad than good, but the instinct to end one's own life in that situation, has been slowly filtered out from the majority of the gene pool.

Another reason people might not kill themselves if they aren't happy, is that they don't feel it is right to cause their loved ones pain.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote:Captain Cardio That's a good point.. I wonder though.. if the reason most people prefer to exist than not exist, is because they hope their situation will be better someday if they stick it out, rather than them ever actually believing for a long period of time, that their current living is a positive experience.

I think its more egocentric in that a person can say "I am alive". That coupled with the fact that death is an unknown. If we new what happened after death more people might opt for that.
Perhaps life is just the lesser of two evils

Most suicides fail because it is just attention seeking. The suicider feels neglected and wants his loved ones to pay attention to him. In a way they are trying to hurt them for not attending to them.

[Captain Cardio]

I think its more egocentric in that a person can say "I am alive". That coupled with the fact that death is an unknown. If we new what happened after death more people might opt for that. Perhaps life is just the lesser of two evils

Thats a good point to, are you implying that life could be a more negative than positive experience though? And it is just because we have sort of trench of not wanting to die, that causes more pain than joy to not overflow and push us to suicide?

Most suicides fail because it is just attention seeking. The suicider feels neglected and wants his loved ones to pay attention to him. In a way they are trying to hurt them for not attending to them.

I'm sure thats very true for some people. But I'm sure there were people out there that just genuinely did not want to live anymore. EDIT: The people who either tried to kill themselves and genuinely failed, or the people who successfully killed themselves.