Born again or not

[SoylentGreen]

I have met those who refer to themselves as Born Again Christians. And most (not all) of these people have converted after a tragedy in there life.
But when looking closer at the tragedy I find that mostly the cause was from having an addictive trait. In that they were addicted to alcahol or drugs or gambeling etc.
And those addictions brought them to the point where their life has collapsed. From that point they made a choice betwen believing in god or committing suicide.
But is it really a belief or is it just another manifestation of their addictive trait, have they just swapped one drug for another.
And if this is so as I believe it is then is it really a true belief or just another addiction.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: SoylentGreen But is it really a belief or is it just another manifestation of their addictive trait, have they just swapped one drug for another. And if this is so as I believe it is then is it really a true belief or just another addiction.

It's just another addiction... memetic instead of chemical.

[Humble Servant]

Well Soylent I consider myself to be "born again" although I really dislike the term because of the hijacking of it by people like Fred Phelps and the like. I did not have an addiction to anything when I became a believer.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Humble Servant I did not have an addiction to anything when I became a believer.

Tell us your conversion story. It will contain:

• Childhood indoctrination.
• A strong emotional attachment to the church / institution / individual that helpped you convert.
• A traumatic experience in your life.
• A combination there of.

Go on. Prove me wrong.

[SoylentGreen]

Humble Servant, then perhaps the term born again doesnt belong to you.
One has to sink low before they can rise again to be born again.
Think Johnny Cash and that type of person.
Did you ever get that low?

[texasdave]

I am born again. It refers to the change in your life that a genuine heartfelt conversion to serve Christ produces. People who knew you before and afterwards will notice the change. Those changes are part of the " fruit" Jesus refers to. Many come to Christ because when they are as low as they can get only then will they look up. That's O.K. though. Whatever it takes is good.

[SoylentGreen]

Whatever it takes is good.

If it works for you then thats cool
But my point is was it an addiction that brought you low and is your faith now just another addiction.
After all even heroin makes you feel good.

[Captain Cardio]

One of the traits of most addictions is diminishing returns and tolerance. When people get addicted, they become less and less satisfied by what it is their addicted to as they use/do it, and require more and more of it to feel good, and eventually, just to feel ok.

I have seen plenty of church goers that seem perfectly content going to one sermon a week, and leaving it at that.

That isn't to say it couldn't be addictive to a minority of people, but you can say that about anything that is done outside of moderation. Where do we draw the line, between enjoyment and addiction? I would think the line would be the quality of tolerance or diminishing returns.

Tell us your conversion story. It will contain: Childhood indoctrination. A strong emotional attachment to the church / institution / individual that helpped you convert. A traumatic experience in your life. A combination there of.

You have a point there about what leads people to religion, and that being similar to what leads some people to addiction. But I think religion lacks the quality of having a polarizing effect on people's moods.

Some people might look forward to church because their friends are there, and thus have their week-long mood affected by how long ago church was, and how long it is till church again. But then it could be the friends their addicted to, and then we could say the same about any regular scheduled social gathering.

[texasdave]

An addiction did not bring me low. I did have my walk in the wilderness, though. Jesus Christ is the truth. That is why I serve Him. You assume that the path to Christ is the reason to serve Him. Not so. That is just the mechanism that brings people to Christ. They still, as an act of free will, must choose Him.

[yourwrong]

Most people have major tragedies along lifes path. Do to these tragedies some people's way of getting over them is to convert to christianity so in this way it is like a pain killer that only works if you truly believe in it. Also like a pain killer it can have side effects such as ignorance, and tyrannic dictators using it to gain power. It also can be addicting as some people dedicate their lives in service to the lord or you can't talk to them without them uttering some line from the bible. But also as a pain killer if you use sparsely and use it only to get out of lifes ruts then it can have splendid results. So I would say christianity is more like a pain killer then an addictive drug it can be deadly in large doses when mixed with ignorance but in small doses can help you deal with life's burdens.

[texasdave]

And then there is always the possibility that it is the truth,huh.

[Humble Servant]

Quote by: Zhavric Tell us your conversion story. It will contain: Childhood indoctrination. A strong emotional attachment to the church / institution / individual that helpped you convert. A traumatic experience in your life. A combination there of. Go on. Prove me wrong.

Well Z my conversion took about 25 years. I had no childhood indoctrination as my parents we not a part of the church. I also had no attachment to the church. Yes I have had traumatic experiences in my life but not one that "triggered" my need for God. As far as proving anything to you I can't. You just have to accept what I say as truth or reject it. :)

[SoylentGreen]

Captain Cardio That isn't to say it couldn't be addictive to a minority of people, but you can say that about anything that is done outside of moderation. Where do we draw the line, between enjoyment and addiction? I would think the line would be the quality of tolerance or diminishing returns.

I think it is only a minority of people I am refering to. This isn't an attempt to say that faith is an addiction.
It's more that people who suffer from addiction are not really true believers in god, they are just trying to satisfy there addiction by proffessing a belief in god.
For the x drug addict or alcoholic who stands on a street corner handing out pamphlets are only satisfying a craving rather than actually getting redemption.
Its like a non believer trying to cover his bets by saying he believes in the hope of fooling god.
I am thinking about a guy I know who as a ex druggy now full blown christian. He has read only one book in the last 15 years and that is the bible. He can quote it by word and that is about all he does. But if I try to ask him what it means or how does he interpret the quotes of the bible and he cannot do it. All he can do is quote it.
That is not a belief it is an addiction.
Or do you disagree, is it just good enough to say that you believe, an understanding is not neccessary?

But I think religion lacks the quality of having a polarizing effect on people's moods.

There are some real fanatics out there and some of those "born again" have a very polarised view of religion.

texasdave They still, as an act of free will, must choose Him.

My point exactly. addiction is not free will.

yourwrong So I would say christianity is more like a pain killer

So would you agree that religion is the opiate of the people?

[texasdave]

Karl Marx was an idiot. Religion is not an opiate. There is an innate desire of the heart, placed by God, to seek and worship Him. Many times that gets misdirected by deception but it is there amongst all cultures.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: texasdave Karl Marx was an idiot. Religion is not an opiate. There is an innate desire of the heart, placed by God, to seek and worship Him. Many times that gets misdirected by deception but it is there amongst all cultures.

Wow. Coke & Nike wish they could have brand loyalty like that.

Oh... and have you guys seen my updated sig?

[Captain Cardio]

It's more that people who suffer from addiction are not really true believers in god, they are just trying to satisfy there addiction by proffessing a belief in god.

I understand you're refering to reformed addicts, but you could apply that same idea to anybody who starts believing in god, that they don't actually believe at first, they just try to make themselves so they can get something from religion that makes them feel good. If we are to say that religious addiction can exist, I think we need to figure out what line a person crosses between being a believer, and being addicted.

Its like a non believer trying to cover his bets by saying he believes in the hope of fooling god.

Even if the person doesn't believe in christianity, if they are trying to believe and are acting like a good christian, I would hope that God would permit this person, and not necessarily interpret his actions as deception.

I am thinking about a guy I know who as a ex druggy now full blown christian. He has read only one book in the last 15 years and that is the bible. He can quote it by word and that is about all he does. But if I try to ask him what it means or how does he interpret the quotes of the bible and he cannot do it. All he can do is quote it.

I think this more indicative of obsessive behavior rather than actual addiction.

The difference is that maybe this kind of person has a tendancy to make their life all about one thing, whether it be partying(with drugs and alcohol) or religion. While they were doing partying, they may have had an actual addiction to the drugs or booze. Once they got past their addiction, their inherant behaviour was to make their life all about one thing again, because they still hadn't learned moderation. They have just learned to either do something obsessively, or not do it at all. They person chose to take an interest in religion, and thus took an interest obsessively.

So I think you could chalk it up to an obsessive personality type.

That is not a belief it is an addiction. Or do you disagree, is it just good enough to say that you believe, an understanding is not neccessary?

It seems like the line you draw about whether or not religion is an addiction or an actual belief, is whether or not someone trying to be religious understands it. I know plenty of people that go to church that don't bother reading the bible, or thinking critically about what is said in the sermons. They just go to church and it makes them feel comforted.

They still argue with other people about whether god is real, but they aren't able to really back up their position, they just get angry and frustrated whenever they try to make their case with a skeptic. This situation applies to many christians. It wouldn't be fair to say they aren't addicted, if we consider your ex-druggy friend to be addicted, on these grounds anyway, when really the druggy is exhibiting the same behaviour, just more of it. At least the druggy's gone to the effort of reading and memorizing some of the bible.

Captain cardio said: But I think religion lacks the quality of having a polarizing effect on people's moods. SoylentGreen said: There are some real fanatics out there and some of those "born again" have a very polarised view of religion.

Their view of religion might be polarized, but I mean mood polarization.

People with polarized (for clarity, this is like 'extreme-d') moods, which are often a result of addiction, feel alot more highs and lows than the average person, and a lot less moments of feeling average. If someone is addicted to drugs, whenever they take them they feel really good, but then a few hours later they start to feel really bad as the high wears off, and want to take drugs again.

Whether it be smoking, drugs or booze, all addictions have obvious effects on a person's mood, and are the kind of thing somebody needs constantly to bring their mood up. For religion, this reformed druggy wouldn't be running home from work feeling terrible, thinking "****! I need another fix of christianity!".

The ex-druggy may talk about religion constantly, but you could just chalk that up to an obsessive personality, rather than an actual addiction.

[yourwrong]

Quote by: SoylentGreen So would you agree that religion is the opiate of the people?

Yeah I was more thinking of drugs like morphine as opposed to advil or some other over the counter drug as those aren't really that addictive.

[Technosoul]

It is a known fact that some people via A.A. and other support groups exchange chemical addiction with that religious highs.

It is also a known fact that people join churches for other reasons, to find out what it is all about, for social reasons, even to network for business reasons. so on and so forth.

Some get addicted and some do not.

Back in the late 1950s lots of people were getting bored with religion and some were even falling asleep in the back pews. Then came the hippy generations and saved them all from their zombie like culture, saved by drugs.

When religions become a bad trip someone will come along to save people from religion, when drugs become a bad trip some religion might save you, or science (and you get addicted to prescription drugs). It is all about setting someone free from the rut they are in. Salvation into enslavement is very common but only when it seems to offer freedom,

Is religion the opiate of the people. Here is a scientific test. If you are religious then try giving it all up for three months. Do not go to chruch or read anything religious, do not conduct any prayers or religious riturals, do not talk to anyone about religion. For three months. If you cannot let it go for three months - you are an addict. If you do it but feel the urge to return all the time, you have a mild addiction. If the three month seperation has no effect on you, then the fact is you were not addicted.

Who wants to try this test?

[texasdave]

Let's see... trade heroin or alcohol addiction for peace on earth and goodwill towards men. Hmmmm. Yep, sounds like a good trade to me.

[SoylentGreen]

Addiction isnt a matter of choosing dave and anyway we are talking about going the other way.
Whether leaving drugs and alcohol to take up faith is real or just another addiction.