Origins of Western Religion

[Aud]

It is easy to trace Christianity and Islam as religions stemming and evolving from Judaism, however I am having a harder time finding the predecessors of Judaism itself. Although it is the first major monotheistic religion, it is not the absolute first religion to recognize monotheism. There are two earlier religions I can find that may have influenced the Hebrew bible. One is the Aten cult, a brief Egyptian religion in 14th century BC in which pharaoh Akhetaten, who kept Hebrew slaves, pronounced the sun god to be the one and only true god. This is the first monotheistic religion recorded. The other is Zoroastrianism, with one creator god named Ahura Mazda, prevalent in Iran before the rise of Judaism, and influences of its practice are found in the Hebrew bible.

A similar religion to Zoroastrianism is the historical Vedic Religion, which gave rise to Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. It is debatable as to whether the Vedic Religion has a direct relationship to Zoroastrianism, but it may at least have influence. If this is true, would this be the recent common ancestor linking eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc) to Western religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)?

What do you guys think?

[Aud]

Also, any feedback on other possible predecessors/influences to Judaism?

[Technosoul]

It sounds to me like you have done your homework pretty well.

You might be interested in researching Sumer, which dates back before the ones you mentioned.

Their god had sons a daughters but the "heavenly father" was the number one "main god". Babylon re-named the "off-spring" gods "angels" so that they had one god but many angels instead of many gods in a ranking order of importance.

In Sumer they called God "AN" and sometimes used the word "ANU"
meaning "heavenly father" (of the lords). They write about actual visitations from the Lords who dwell in the sky (heavens). The Divine was a family.

Here is one link to get started or to stir up your interest.

Sumer

or Sumer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was reported biblically that Abraham migrated from a place with that name.

Of course the Jewish people claim that the early stories in the Bible (Noah and so forth) were before Sumer which suddenly rose as a kingdom following the last Ice Age (and the legendary flood).

Sumer, the original place, was discovered fairly later then others, perhaps in the 1930s researchers first started to 'make digs" and they uncovered lots of clay tablets with writings. Lucky they also found a dictionary in Babylon that told the researchers what the symbols in Sumer would mean if translated into the symbols used in Babylon. by symbols I means words. However some tablets have yet to be translated and then translated into English. And more is undergound but because of the area it is located it is hard to get permission to continue the research. (and one big war might distory all the evidence forever).
Due to modern types of bombs that can explode underground. With the middle eastern wars happening lots of research is at a stand still for Western scientists.

A few books were also published about the findings and the clay tablets.

Moses however might have changed the direction the Jewish ideas took when he rebelled from this parents in Egypt after finding out that he had been adopted. Relative to the story about the God of the 10 Commandments.

the word Sumer means 'the land" but no doubt the land under the control of that kingdom, the first Kingdom following the last Ice Age. No one has discovered one that is older.

This kingdom had ships and sailed down to south Africa where they had gold mines, the area of Sumer used oil near the surface 'temperature controled kelms' where they could refine the gold and even make images out of the gold. They had farming of course. Even made beer. The cities were well constructed with buildings and houses. At least 6 cities in all. One city was for religion, with a Temple where the visiting Lords can stay, complete with a walled in tower. The gold was stored in parts of the Temple. (an idea continued later by Solomon). They had sewage and running water and bathtubs. Another city was dedicated to education. They had schools for teaching many things - science and other topics. Another city was dedicated to government, where human leaders were trained how to run the kingdom and they had laws and moral standards. Working and following instructions were paramount to the operaiton of that great kingdom, via education. They had farming sites near where Babylon was later built. And trees from the "holy land" where Jesus was a carpenter were transported to Sumer - funiture, boats, etc.
They made molds and then could press a number of clay tablets out like a printing press does for paper to duplicate their "texts". They had marrages between people.
There is actually no evidence of where these people might have otherwise come from or why that kindom with it's advanced knowlede suddenly got built with no trace to a less knowlable culture. That is to say... no slow development of their technologies.
As I recall the cities were disigned in a kind of large circle.

[Aud]

Hey, thanks for the reply! I can't believe I totally overlooked Sumer, when a little research shows how prevalent this influence to Judaism seems to be.

Although Sumer is technically a polytheistic religion, it does heavily stress a particular god, Anu. Much of the sumer mythology, particularly involving demons, can be found in the Hebrew bible, such as Lilith the first wife of Adam. The two religions also share the symbol of the tree of life.

One scholar seems to be linking Sumer to Judaism, claiming that sumerian 'haibrus' were driven west from mesopotamia during the Akkadian (sumerian) conquest. Hmm, 'haibru' sounds very similar to 'hebrew.'

And you are right, the old testament does seem to claim that Abraham's predecessors come from Sumer.

I wonder if Sumer can be linked to Zoroastrianism or the Vedic religion. It does seem to link easily to Ancient Egypt, supporting the idea of the Aten cult influence.

[Jack]

What complicates the matter is that in the known world at that time a lot of trading was going on. Stories would be heard in one place and repeated who knows how many times, with how many variations, as that trader traveled from one place to another? Considering how many supernatural beliefs must have developed, flourished and died in societies that lacked writing, I have to wonder how many gods there might be if we had historical evidence of them all.
This is an interesting topic.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Aud Hey, thanks for the reply! I can't believe I totally overlooked Sumer, when a little research shows how prevalent this influence to Judaism seems to be. Although Sumer is technically a polytheistic religion, it does heavily stress a particular god, Anu. Much of the sumer mythology, particularly involving demons, can be found in the Hebrew bible, such as Lilith the first wife of Adam. The two religions also share the symbol of the tree of life. One scholar seems to be linking Sumer to Judaism, claiming that sumerian 'haibrus' were driven west from mesopotamia during the Akkadian (sumerian) conquest. Hmm, 'haibru' sounds very similar to 'hebrew.' And you are right, the old testament does seem to claim that Abraham's predecessors come from Sumer. I wonder if Sumer can be linked to Zoroastrianism or the Vedic religion. It does seem to link easily to Ancient Egypt, supporting the idea of the Aten cult influence.

Might be a link being they built their kingdoms following others in that relative area of the globe. But the influence of China is little known about (to me personally) and Tibet.

Anyway you should read "The 12th Planet' and other books by the same author. His main idea is a little radical in that he promotes that idea the the gods are alien beings from another planet, but yet his research of Sumer and related cultures was well done and you can learn much from him about that. He is very well educated in how to translate hebrew and greek words, and other anicent scripts, which is helpfull. He spent his whole life reseaching for his books. And is knowable about science and the solar system as well. And all the known ancient texts. The book about the 12th planet has lots of background knowledge about Sumer.

Amazon.com: The 12th Planet (The Earth Chronicles, Book 1): Books: Zecharia Sitchin

Most used books stores have his book and the price is nomally cheap.

[Technosoul]

Another VERY FAINT link might connect ancient South American cultures to the middle eastern ones. Due in part to the simular construction of the pyramids. Those people might have sailed to Eastern Island as well.

Now we have a a legend that Stonehenge was build by people who arrived there in a boat. And about two years ago they found a small version of stonehenge in Fla. USA when they were digging to put up an apartment complex. Native American legends speak of thier leader leaving in a boat towards the sun (eastward). Added to that are reports of a little known group of nomads who were un-cooth looking but when they got to Eqypt they impressed the teachers in Egypt with all the knowledge they knew, especally about math and so on. Some feel it was those romads who built Stonehenge. The Bible mentioned in one tiny verse about such a great leader (forgot name,,, started with M) and when the Jewish people saw him they gave him all the spoils of war that they had just attained. Out of respect. Who was that guy and what was his tribe... little is known. And the biblical Gaints who lived on the earth and married some of the girls in the then hebrew tribe. Again, only a small passage devoted to that race. In Hebrew the word from which we translated gaints means in fact "those who can touch the sky". Could that mean they could fly or that they were tall people?

Now we got no historical evidence that people from Egypt came to America and built some pyramid structures. And yet we see simular things in those works. But the symbols (words) are different.

But Sumer is your best bet for more data.

[Technosoul]

can "supernatual god" be the same as a lord who had such advanced knowledge that he was thought of as being supernatural? Teaching people like Noah how to build a Ark and teaching people how to build a great kingdom (city)?

[Aud]

Added to that are reports of a little known group of nomads who were un-cooth looking but when they got to Eqypt they impressed the teachers in Egypt with all the knowledge they knew, especally about math and so on. Some feel it was those romads who built Stonehenge. The Bible mentioned in one tiny verse about such a great leader (forgot name,,, started with M) and when the Jewish people saw him they gave him all the spoils of war that they had just attained. Out of respect. Who was that guy and what was his tribe... little is known. And the biblical Gaints who lived on the earth and married some of the girls in the then hebrew tribe. Again, only a small passage devoted to that race. In Hebrew the word from which we translated gaints means in fact "those who can touch the sky". Could that mean they could fly or that they were tall people? .

If the people who built the pyramids might have come from the same culture who built stonehenge, it would be interesting if these 'gaints' were actually nomads in Egypt who married hebrew and were said to 'touch the sky' because of their knowledge and ability to build gigantic structures. Ha, I'm reaching waaaay far, but I'm just speculating.

Anyway, this is all getting very complicated, and it seems like there are probably more influences to Judaism than I would have thought. Maybe there is some way to trace the trade routes around Africa, Europe, and Asia that could indicate what cultures the Egypt/Middle-East area might have come into contact with.

And Sumer does seem to play a major part. I wonder if it is also possible to trace the origins of the Sumer religion, although that could be difficult considering Mesopotamia is the first documented civilization.

I have lots to do now

[Zhavric]

[offtopic] This is another thread that reminds me of the book American Gods by Neil Gaiman. You should read it. [/offtopic]

[ZNFYRH]

Aud

If I might be permitted to over-simplify, it almost seems like there is a "missing link" between the transition from polytheism to monotheism.

From my best understanding of reading multiple sources over the past few hours, it almost seems as though monotheism stemmed from polytheistic religions allowing focus on one specific god in their faith.

This wasn't uncommon, as villages in specific geographic areas found that one particular god represented aspects of the environment that they held important.

There tends to be a shift of some kind towards the idea of focusing worship on just that one god to centralizing worship for that one God.

I'm still looking into when and where that shift occurred.

[Aud]

[offtopic response] I have, and it was a great book. Neil Gaiman is awesome. [/offtopic response]

[Aud]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Aud If I might be permitted to over-simplify, it almost seems like there is a "missing link" between the transition from polytheism to monotheism. From my best understanding of reading multiple sources over the past few hours, it almost seems as though monotheism stemmed from polytheistic religions allowing focus on one specific god in their faith. This wasn't uncommon, as villages in specific geographic areas found that one particular god represented aspects of the environment that they held important. There tends to be a shift of some kind towards the idea of focusing worship on just that one god to centralizing worship for that one God. I'm still looking into when and where that shift occurred.

I agree with your analysis. Monotheism didn't come from nowhere, and in some cases, there seems to be a fine line between mono and polytheism.

Take modern Christianity for example. Mono or poly? It seems as if it could be both, considering worship towards the holy trinity, the virgin mary, other deities such as angels and saints. But this religion does hold to the ultimate worship and stress of one God.

It seems like a lot of monotheistic religions share this ambiguity, and so definately could stem from earlier polytheistic religions stressing more worship into one deity, such as is found in both Sumer and many other religions around that time.

I would definately be interested if you found at which point polytheism began to blend with monotheism, as this is what I myself have been looking for.

[ZNFYRH]

Aud

Definite nod from me on the hint at polytheism in Christianity. Moreso, in fact, than Judaism and Islam. I don't want to get into the reasons for that, though if you'd like to PM or create a new topic, I'm game.

One idea that I've been toying with completely on my own is that Judaism is derived from worshiping the Tetragrammaton, the four-letter god.

What if those four letters initially represented four separate gods? Or four separate ideals? In a few Middle Easter languages, specific letters of the alphabet aren't just letters, but are actually words that represent a concept.

What if the deepest origins of Judaism came from worshiping an amalgamation of multiple gods, or a god who was the embodiment of four complex ideals represented by four symbols?

[Aud]

On the subject of Tetragrammaton, the god Yahweh does seem to be traced to the Midian tribe, which resided in the mountains to which Moses allegedly led his people from Egypt.
The Midians did worship multiple Gods. So maybe YHWH could be a series of four letters, each representing one of the multiple deities of the Midian tribe, or the geographical neighbors, the Kenites?

That would be really interesting. It could mean that the ancient Hebrew God was just a string of symbolic ideas or concepts, since that seems to be what polytheistic deities represent.

This would be so much easier to research if I knew Hebrew.

[ZNFYRH]

Aud

After some more research...

Tetragrammaton is defined as:
"It is a kabalistical term and corresponds on a more material plane to the sacred Pythagorean Tetraktys."

Then I found this...

The Pythagorean Science of Numbers

Read it all the way through. It will blow your mind.

It mentions the different structures of philosophical number theory, as well as a significant mention for how it can be misconstrued to mean everything to a Holy Trinity to a single God above all else.

[Technosoul]

What about nature as the actual source for concepts re-applied?

Now in the darkness of the night the many stars are visable, the 'lights" of the heavens, along with the moon who has a pagan tiltle as Mother Moon.

As we move from night into day the "many stars - aka gods" vanish and one star, the Sun dominates the sky as the One and Only Light.

That natural event is simular to the transformation from poly to mono if you can vision the anology relative to religious concepts.

Amazon.com: Skywatchers, Shamans & Kings: Astronomy and the Archaeology of Power (Wiley Popular Science,): Books: E. C. Krupp

This next link ties in ancient American religions. And the use of buildings to 'touch the sky" via Skywatching activites.

Aveni, Skywatchers, University of Texas Press

You will be a busy boy.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Aud After some more research... Tetragrammaton is defined as: "It is a kabalistical term and corresponds on a more material plane to the sacred Pythagorean Tetraktys." Then I found this... The Pythagorean Science of Numbers Read it all the way through. It will blow your mind. It mentions the different structures of philosophical number theory, as well as a significant mention for how it can be misconstrued to mean everything to a Holy Trinity to a single God above all else.

that is a great link. Pythagorean Science also included the same concepts about number theory to music and colors. This also shows a link to "nature" as an influence... and I think their science was also employed as part of what is termed "sacred" for religious explainations.

[Aud]

Wow. I did not expect that this would be traced all the way back to Pythagoras. So it seems that the idea of a single God or even a trinity may have been derived from pythagorean number theory. So could this be the 'missing link' and perhaps monotheism actually comes from a misinterpretation of the philosophical science of pythagoras? Crazy. But considering the impact the Greeks had on the rest of the world, it is likely a large influence on the consequential development of monotheistic religions, such as the Hebrew interpretation of YHWH as being one God.

If this is true, than preceding religions or influences such as Sumer, Zoloastrianism, Vedic, and the Iranian Heroic Age are probably just minor contributions to theology of Judaism, but not to the overall essence of monotheism.

Hmm, should I rule the Aten Cult out than as an influence to the idea of one god? Is it possible that Akhetaten himself could have been influenced by this monotheistic interpretation? Or perhaps we could take a more holistic point of view and hypothesize that the idea of one god could have come from multiple sources, such as pythagoras, aten, zoloastrianism, Sumer, and the Midian tribe, making Judaism a large mosaic of a myriad of preceding cultures and religions.

[Alive]

This thread has a lot of wild speculation. I think the evidence points to, as far as we can see, that Judaism developed organically in the Palestine region, definitely influenced strongly by Mesopotamian culture and to some extent influenced by Egypt. It is unclear that Zoroastrianism predates Judaism, and I suspect Zoroastrianism had absolutely no effect on the religion until the Babylonian exile (there is no evidence supporting that theory). It is certain that Judaism predates Pythagoras. And no, there is no connection between the Pyramids of Egypt or Sumer and the pyramids in Mesoamerica, that goes beyond wild speculation into the realm of absurdity.

Jewish Monotheism almost certainly developed out of Mesopotamian polytheism; however, polytheism itself probably developed out of a kind of unconscious monotheism. After all, different cities had their own top god even though they recognized the gods of other cities.