Is deception tantamount to lying?

[Epistemologist]

If the police come to you and ask if you have a nuclear bomb in your briefcase, and you say no because really you have a dirty bomb, are you still lying? You're deceiving them into thinking that you don't have any hostile weapon in your briefcase.

There are lots of other examples too. Is lying wrong? And is deceiving wrong as well? Do you commit any such actions?

[ZNFYRH]

Do you blame the person with the bomb for answering honestly?

Or do you blame the police for not asking the right question?

If you are a married man, your wife will tell you that the deceit is just as bad.

Objectively speaking, I have no issue with the deceit because you are answering the question honestly and not offering any additional information.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Epistemologist If the police come to you and ask if you have a nuclear bomb in your briefcase, and you say no because really you have a dirty bomb, are you still lying? You're deceiving them into thinking that you don't have any hostile weapon in your briefcase. There are lots of other examples too. Is lying wrong? And is deceiving wrong as well? Do you commit any such actions?

In terms of the specific example, this is why police officers ask "What have you got in the briefcase?" instead of trying to play twenty questions:

"Is it . . . a gun?"
"No."
"Is it . . .an explosive device?"
"Hmmm. . ." *shrugs*
"So it's like an explosive device . . ."


In general, I think that if you need to lie to yourself in order to make your answer seem a reasonable response to the question, then it is lying. For instance, if a police officer asked, "What have you got in the briefcase?" and you answered, "Nothing," because internally you're thinking, "Well, after all possession is an illusion, so really, the bomb in the briefcase isn't mine, per se . . ." then you are deceiving yourself about the officer's intent, and you are lying.

If, on the other hand, someone had a less-than-perfect command of English, and perhaps had taken a vow of poverty and really didn't believe they owned what was in the briefcase, then saying "I have nothing in the briefcase" wouoldn't be a lie, simply a misunderstanding.

[Epistemologist]

So perhaps conscious deception is lying.

And although technically you may be honest by giving an honest answer to a question, if you're being deceptive, it may be wrong on another level. So then we'd have to come up with two ethical standards: lying is wrong and conscious deception is wrong.

[ZNFYRH]

Is it deception to want to avoid trouble by answering honestly?

The problem is that thinking deception is wrong is a moral issue.

But in objective matters, legal ones for example, there is nothing wrong with that.

As CoffeeSaint said, if the cops ask yes-or-no questions, you can't blame the person for answering the questions honestly.

[Epistemologist]

The answerer would attempt to satisfy his/her own interests and the interests of the police as well to avoid trouble.

What if a man returns to his wife one morning and she asks him if he's been having sex? Really, he's been having oral sexual relations, and since he doesn't qualify that as sex per se, he says no, even though he knows his wife's definition of sex includes those relations.

Anyway, I suppose we could discuss the moral aspects of it since this is the Philosophy and Religion section.

[ZNFYRH]

Well, that's why I said a married man wouldn't be able to pull that selective answer thing.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Is it deception to want to avoid trouble by answering honestly? The problem is that thinking deception is wrong is a moral issue. But in objective matters, legal ones for example, there is nothing wrong with that. As CoffeeSaint said, if the cops ask yes-or-no questions, you can't blame the person for answering the questions honestly.

I would argue that it is deception, and it is morally wrong, if you understand the questioner's intent and specifically ignore that in order to preserve your self-interest. If you are carrying a bomb and a policeman stops you, you should state that you have a bomb, why you have it, and where you are going with it. If you have no reasonable explanation for having a bomb, then you shouldn't have a bomb.

I don't believe that deception, or lying, is morally justified. We need to cooperate and co-exist as a society, and lying makes that harder. If there are aspects of your life that you would not want to share, then avoid situations when they might come up. Don't carry the bomb if you don't want to explain it to the cops. Don't cheat on the wife, or don't get married, or marry a swinger, depending on your preference.

[Captain Cardio]

I would argue that it is deception, and it is morally wrong, if you understand the questioner's intent and specifically ignore that in order to preserve your self-interest. If you are carrying a bomb and a policeman stops you, you should state that you have a bomb, why you have it, and where you are going with it. If you have no reasonable explanation for having a bomb, then you shouldn't have a bomb.

I would imagine that if you had a bomb, you probably have an intent to use it.. probably for something that you feel is right. It's still deception to lie to the police officer about it, but whether or not it is morally right or wrong, is a different subject and depends on who's perspective you're looking from. The person with the bomb could full well believe that they are doing the right thing. Whether or not they are actually right about using a bomb for their purpose isn't in question here though, but I just want to say that whether it is morally right or wrong, depends on an issue seperate from the actual lying or deceiving. I'm sure there are situations where lying is the right thing to do, not necessarily this bomb scenario though.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Epistemologist If the police come to you and ask if you have a nuclear bomb in your briefcase, and you say no because really you have a dirty bomb, are you still lying? You're deceiving them into thinking that you don't have any hostile weapon in your briefcase. There are lots of other examples too. Is lying wrong? And is deceiving wrong as well? Do you commit any such actions?

Not really. The reason being is because the police asked a "deceptiive question" but the man answered correctly and accordingly.

If the police were honest they would have asked "Can we put you into jail for the rest of your life because you have a nucler bomb"?

The man acturally answered "No I do not want to go to jail".

And so you must look "through" the question to see the intent behind it and then answer it based on the "intent".

It is foolish to answer a DECEPTIVE question with the Truth. Just like a mouse is foolish to get caught in a trap because it has cheese in it.

[ZNFYRH]

That's the rub I spotted too.

If you were the type of person to be carrying around a bomb of some kind, you probably aren't going to cave in and admit it.

[5010]

Deception is lying. I say normally lying is wrong except when used in in certain self defense situations to protect from harm or suspicion in matters of privacy.

For example, if there is a highly judgemental nosey person who would suspect much worse than the private truth if you said 'none of your business', you can tell them enough to shut them up.

Another example is if you are threatened with bodily harm by a greater foe, feel free to deceive the person into thinking you have more defenses than you really do.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: 5010 Deception is lying. I say normally lying is wrong except when used in in certain self defense situations to protect from harm or suspicion in matters of privacy. For example, if there is a highly judgemental nosey person who would suspect much worse than the private truth if you said 'none of your business', you can tell them enough to shut them up. Another example is if you are threatened with bodily harm by a greater foe, feel free to deceive the person into thinking you have more defenses than you really do.

I had another "example" once. Let's say you lived in Germany when Hitler was in power and was hiding a Jewish friend in your house.
The secret police knock on the door and ask "Got any Jews in your house?"

If you answer yes they will kill your friend.

If you answer no you save the life of your friend.

What is the most turthful thing to do?

[Epistemologist]

The most truthful thing to do is to answer yes. However, in this situation, you'd have to make a decision between two wrongs. Which is worse, lying or not standing up to oppression, for your friend, etc.? The person sort of made that decision right when he accepted the Jew in the first place because he realized that he might have to compromise an anti-lying standard to uphold a different goal.

[Captain Cardio]

However, in this situation, you'd have to make a decision between two wrongs.

I think this hinges on the assumption that lying is always wrong, I don't believe thats true.