Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Athena · Jun 4, 2007, 02:52 pm

Originally the word "moral" meant to have good manners and know the law, as in universal law. Good manners are more important to democracy than good laws, because when people have good manners, they can have liberty, instead of laws and law enforces ruling over them.

My grandmother lived by 3 simple rules:

1. We respect all people. It makes no difference who the other is, because being respectful is about who we are, not who the other person is.

2. We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others. If I do something right or wrong, it isn't the subject of the thread, and a PM is better way of communicating with people about what they are doing than derailing threads with personal arugments.

3. We act with integrity. This is beyond don't lie, cheat, steal. It is also being honorable.

When we believe are doing the moral thing, we have high morale; that good spirit feeling.

texasdave · Jun 4, 2007, 02:54 pm

Upon what foundation of irrefutable truth do these standards rest?

Athena · Jun 4, 2007, 03:00 pm

Quote:

Quote by: texasdave

Upon what foundation of irrefutable truth do these standards rest?

:) are you looking for an argument? The proof is in the pudding. That is, what I have offered logically gets good results, and violating the rules does not.

texasdave · Jun 4, 2007, 03:16 pm

Right on. Now apply that to not fornicating, not stealing, not lying, not coveting etc. The proof is in the pudding. Well said.

Setnakt · Jun 5, 2007, 04:02 pm

No one's forcing you to be polite. But it is recommended.

fushigi · Jun 6, 2007, 04:38 am

I agree with you 100%, Athena. There's never any need to be outrageous or abusive, unless you enjoy being inflammatory because it gets a response, and you're starved for attention.

Amazingly, the most successful debaters here generally get few responses to their posts, because (1) their logic is sound--cannot be easily contested, and (2) they're not trolling and name-calling, which will ensure you get a response but weaken your argument at the same time.

Just as Machiavelli said: a terrible ruler is mocked by the people; a mediocre ruler is praised by the people; a great ruler is ignored by the people, since his government runs so well it seems as natural as the sun or moon. Apply that logic to posting, and voila, my point stands.

fushigi

ZNFYRH · Jun 6, 2007, 08:58 am

fushigi

I wonder if that's true.

I rarely get response in larger discussions, yet I see some people who, if not ignored, get responses all the time.

I always perceive it as if my post doesn't get a response, the person is sitting there nodding in silent agreement. On that, I think it's unfortunate that if someone doesn't have an argument, they don't usually post agreement. But agreement should be more than an ego-stroking, "Right on... I don't like the person you're arguing with so I'll support you without thinking for myself."

On the flip side, I'm part of another forum where manners and conduct are more strictly moderated and warnings are posted publicly. I like that system because there may be fewer regular posters, but the ones who post have something to say.

I understand that letting manners slide and rudeness be allowed might inspire good debate, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Letting someone get away with condescension always results in infractions.

Milton Bradley · Jun 6, 2007, 09:08 am

Generally, I think the less responses, the less people have issues with what is said.

On the other hand, if the claims are really outrageuos, a lot of people ( myself included ) will just ignore them completely.

ZNFYRH · Jun 6, 2007, 09:14 am

Although, I think people have a tendency to respond to bad manners, even when they actually agree with the point being made.

I know I created a thread and someone who seems to have a personal problem with me did nothing but reword the entire opening post, but with condescension added in.

Too many people need to nitpick over definitions, I think, instead of just have a discussion. It boils down to wanting the thread to happen on your terms... and then the bickering starts.

In that bickering people let their manners go, and the thread is essentially dead and dying.

StrongHeartsWin · Jun 6, 2007, 09:21 am

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Too many people need to nitpick over definitions, I think, instead of just have a discussion.

What makes communication almost impossible to go forward in any coherent way for people who take the common usage of words, are those who try to redefine words, or constantly use the lesser marginal meaning of them.

Jagged · Jun 6, 2007, 09:49 am

Quote:

Quote by: texasdave

Right on. Now apply that to not fornicating, not stealing, not lying, not coveting etc. The proof is in the pudding. Well said.

Somebody still hasn't been enlightened to the fact that non-christians have feelings and morals too

I agree. I'll also agree that you also need an argument to have one.

ZNFYRH · Jun 6, 2007, 10:54 am

SHW

Those kinds of people are all over the place. My point was that it just isn't bad manners that ruin a thread, but when that sort of person does that sort of thing, it inspires more bad manners.

bishop · Jun 6, 2007, 10:56 am

Quote:

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin

What makes communication almost impossible to go forward in any coherent way for people who take the common usage of words, are those who try to redefine words, or constantly use the lesser marginal meaning of them.

ironic that this post was made in a thread entitled "good manners make good threads". this post is a perfect example of bad manners that help to turn good threads bad.

do not create disruptive posts like this again.

Jun 4, 2007, 02:52 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Athena Iconoclast Posts: 5,077	Good manners make good threads Originally the word "moral" meant to have good manners and know the law, as in universal law. Good manners are more important to democracy than good laws, because when people have good manners, they can have liberty, instead of laws and law enforces ruling over them. My grandmother lived by 3 simple rules: 1. We respect all people. It makes no difference who the other is, because being respectful is about who we are, not who the other person is. 2. We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others. If I do something right or wrong, it isn't the subject of the thread, and a PM is better way of communicating with people about what they are doing than derailing threads with personal arugments. 3. We act with integrity. This is beyond don't lie, cheat, steal. It is also being honorable. When we believe are doing the moral thing, we have high morale; that good spirit feeling.

Jun 6, 2007, 04:38 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
fushigi Hot Lava Location: Beijing Posts: 2,340	I agree with you 100%, Athena. There's never any need to be outrageous or abusive, unless you enjoy being inflammatory because it gets a response, and you're starved for attention. Amazingly, the most successful debaters here generally get few responses to their posts, because (1) their logic is sound--cannot be easily contested, and (2) they're not trolling and name-calling, which will ensure you get a response but weaken your argument at the same time. Just as Machiavelli said: a terrible ruler is mocked by the people; a mediocre ruler is praised by the people; a great ruler is ignored by the people, since his government runs so well it seems as natural as the sun or moon. Apply that logic to posting, and voila, my point stands. fushigi "What truth endures beneath the flaming stream?" -- A Volcano, Bartolome de Las Casas, Inferno de Marsaya, 1536

Jun 4, 2007, 02:54 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
texasdave BANNED Location: Texas Posts: 731	Upon what foundation of irrefutable truth do these standards rest?

Jun 4, 2007, 03:16 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
texasdave BANNED Location: Texas Posts: 731	Right on. Now apply that to not fornicating, not stealing, not lying, not coveting etc. The proof is in the pudding. Well said.

Jun 5, 2007, 04:02 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Setnakt Igneous Magma Posts: 151	No one's forcing you to be polite. But it is recommended.

Jun 6, 2007, 08:58 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	fushigi I wonder if that's true. I rarely get response in larger discussions, yet I see some people who, if not ignored, get responses all the time. I always perceive it as if my post doesn't get a response, the person is sitting there nodding in silent agreement. On that, I think it's unfortunate that if someone doesn't have an argument, they don't usually post agreement. But agreement should be more than an ego-stroking, "Right on... I don't like the person you're arguing with so I'll support you without thinking for myself." On the flip side, I'm part of another forum where manners and conduct are more strictly moderated and warnings are posted publicly. I like that system because there may be fewer regular posters, but the ones who post have something to say. I understand that letting manners slide and rudeness be allowed might inspire good debate, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Letting someone get away with condescension always results in infractions.

Jun 6, 2007, 09:08 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Milton Bradley BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320	Generally, I think the less responses, the less people have issues with what is said. On the other hand, if the claims are really outrageuos, a lot of people ( myself included ) will just ignore them completely.

Jun 6, 2007, 09:14 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Although, I think people have a tendency to respond to bad manners, even when they actually agree with the point being made. I know I created a thread and someone who seems to have a personal problem with me did nothing but reword the entire opening post, but with condescension added in. Too many people need to nitpick over definitions, I think, instead of just have a discussion. It boils down to wanting the thread to happen on your terms... and then the bickering starts. In that bickering people let their manners go, and the thread is essentially dead and dying.

Jun 6, 2007, 10:54 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	SHW Those kinds of people are all over the place. My point was that it just isn't bad manners that ruin a thread, but when that sort of person does that sort of thing, it inspires more bad manners.