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MachineCode0110 · May 28, 2007, 04:37 pm

When you die you're given two options:

1) A paradise, but whatever god you worship is not there.

2) A paradise and whatever god you worship is there.

When the choice isn't as obvious as Heaven or a lake of burning sulfur, would you still choose to be with your god at the end of your life?

Technosoul · May 28, 2007, 05:03 pm

Not a bad question.

I would like my heaven to be where God continues to remain unseen and allows my imagination to create the paradise of my choice.

Gargoyle · May 28, 2007, 05:20 pm

I choose numero 3 because the first 2 are stupid!!!

MachineCode0110 · May 28, 2007, 05:34 pm

I guess the gist of this thread is to ask why are non believers punished for making that choice?

I can see rewarding the believers. But why then go the extra step of punishing non believers?

Seems very coercive to me.

gw120 · May 28, 2007, 05:34 pm

If I was theist I'd choose the latter of the two options, it would make my life seem like less of a waste.

MachineCode0110 · May 28, 2007, 05:38 pm

Do you spend every day in church or something?

Epistemologist · May 28, 2007, 05:47 pm

No, but he would spend all his life sincerely believing in that God.

PatrickHenry · May 28, 2007, 05:48 pm

I think the question is misphrased:

1. Heaven without God

Or

2. With God wherever He might be...

I'll pick 2...

Duke1985 · May 28, 2007, 06:02 pm

A very interesting question.
Well I guess God can sit at my lunch table, so I'll choose number 2.

Madeline · May 28, 2007, 06:24 pm

I believe what the scriptures state, that I know that I have "eternal life" with God, so it's not as simple as choosing between a) or b). Why am I given eternal life? is it because I'm better than others? no, certainly not.

If you believe that Jesus died for your sins, rose again to conquer death and is the Son of God...And if you know that you are a sinner deserving to go to hell because you've broken at least one (probably all, like everyone else) of God's laws, but Jesus paid that penalty for you...then whether you "feel" it or not, you are saved! But Jesus only had to die once for the sins (as someone else said, past, present and future) of mankind. I believe the above.

1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

But since this is a hypothetical question you proposed -- I choose B.

Eternal life is a free Gift...and what awaits those who accept this gift is beyond anything that this world can ever give.

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Oh boy, here I go again with my soapbox preaching...sorry!

Love,
Madeline

MachineCode0110 · May 28, 2007, 06:47 pm

But why should those who sin and don't ask forgiveness from it be punished?

Madeline · May 28, 2007, 06:55 pm

I'm sorta tied up at the moment, but here I go again with scripture -- I apologize if it bothers you.

Romans 2:12 15 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles (those who sin and don't ask forgiveness) , which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Btw, I didn't put that wink there...that last verse (15) ends in a semicoloin and a parentheses.

The writer is trying to tell us that pretty much everyone knows (at least I hope so) that rape or murder is wrong because their conscience tells them so, and God must punish sin just as a judge in a courtroom must punish a rapist. Hope this helps, sorry if this was confusing.

Love,
Madeline

MachineCode0110 · May 28, 2007, 06:59 pm

Why should someone who leads a normal life deserve the same punishment as someone who murders just because he didn't believe?

LordCaelvan · May 28, 2007, 07:04 pm

If there is a heaven (I'm an Athiest, so I doubt it), then that would suggest that there MUST be a god. I think that the two answers assume that there is a god. At the same time, if there is a heaven, than there must be somewhere else, i.e a hell.

If there is an all powerful being that created all, but is only letting the "good" people into paradise, while sending the "bad" people to eternal damnation, I'm siding with the lesser of two evils, Satan. In a heartbeat. I'm not saying that to offend anyone or boil anyone's blood, I'm saying it as a fact. If traditional Christian fundementalism (or any relgious fundementalism for that matter) is to be believed, then I'm headed straight for the red place, and I'm glad about it.

Madeline · May 28, 2007, 07:33 pm

Quote:

Quote by: MachineCode0110

Why should someone who leads a normal life deserve the same punishment as someone who murders just because he didn't believe?

Hi again!

Had to go step out and get me some chocolate!

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "normal" life. A a judge must punish crime that has been committed by a criminal, God must punish sin. There are too many laws in the legal system to even mention, and yet we as people who break these laws must pay the penalty for them regardless if we don't like it, because justice must be served. In like manner, God has set forth His laws and His standards which I believe are much easier to follow than the innumerable laws in the legal system. Haven't we all lied? haven't we all coveted at one time or another? if we have, then we have transgressed God's law, and God as a Holy and Righteous Judge must punish us for these sins -- transgression of the law is sin. And I do understand that some may find this a bit extreme that God must punish us for lying, however God as Creator is the one who sets the standards...not human beings. But then all this wouldn't matter to someone who doesn't believe in God. I hope I didn't offend anyone here, and I apologize if I have...just expressing my belief in words. Even though we all have transgressed the law, we don't have to be punished for it. God loved the world so much, that He sent His own Son into the world to die for our sins and that we may live forever. It's a free gift, received by faith...but not too many people are willing to engage in faith since faith and logic often clash. But I think that if we take that first step of faith -- we will know who God is. Hope this helps!

Love,
Madeline

MachineCode0110 · May 28, 2007, 08:07 pm

But why is all sin to be punished in the same manner?

Technosoul · May 28, 2007, 08:12 pm

Hmm. And so Jewish people are within the written laws and us non-jewish people can have the law written in our hearts to follow. And yet it also said that the heart is full of deceptions. So that can be a bit confusing to some Gentles. However if I in good conscience know what is right in my heart then the only standard I must confrom too is that one to have eternal life or the only "commandment" that I would be judged by. And so I do not need to study the Bible to find out what is good or bad, because I am not Jewish. If I believe in the "rightness" of my heart it is the same as a faith in Jesus and that story even if I do not agree with church interpretations of that story or the concepts related biblically. Thusly beleiving in the secular morality standards as they are unvealed in the heart from out of the blue would go unpunished and would provide me with an eternal domian of deceptions likewise being projected through the lens of the heart form the imagination. Paradise without a tangable looking God but one that is like the one experienced here on earth where the Most High remains anonymous. I have no choice because in my heart I have left out any graven images of what god looks like. But if I create an image of God then that would remain with me. (re; post about the "designer God").

Amen and Awomen. However I do not name God as "God" but use the symbol "O". As such was commanded by my heart.

Seek heaven first and all else will be added. So we need to experience heaven here and now in order to do on earth what is in heaven. Heaven is everything within the influence boundries of the great Spirit which tree of life has taken up housekeeping in the heart. We must of course do some house cleaning to prepare a temple for the spirit to rent, otherwise it might seek another house to dwell within. And so the mission is to go forth and prepare many houses (hearts) for the Lord Spirit to dwell in when visiting this dimension. Enough hearts would add up to a city of hearts and perhaps even a total heaven on earth. Then no matter where you go it will be just like heaven.

LordCaelvan · May 28, 2007, 08:30 pm

Madeline, the big difference between god and a judge is that the judge: a) did not write the law, and b) did not create the possibility for the law to be broken. Not only did the theist's god create all these crazy rules for us to follow, but he made the possibility for us to break them as well! He's god for gosh sakes. If he wanted to he could have left out our ability to sin (and thus damn ourselves) and still given us free will, and we wouldn't have noticed the difference. He made everything after all, including the definition and concept of free will.

SoylentGreen · May 28, 2007, 08:58 pm

Quote:

And so the mission is to go forth and prepare many houses (hearts) for the Lord Spirit to dwell in when visiting this dimension.

while to some that may be taken as a message of hope, to others it is a dire warning. "believe or we will kill you, heathen"
Eternal life in paradise doesn't seem like a big attraction for me.
Its bad enough with reincarnation that I have to come back and do it all over again but to go on and on without respite seems like hell more than heaven.

Madeline · May 28, 2007, 09:04 pm

Hi SoylentGreen!

Quote:

Quote by: SoylentGreen

while to some that may be taken as a message of hope, to others it is a dire warning. "believe or we will kill you, heathen"
Eternal life in paradise doesn't seem like a big attraction for me.
Its bad enough with reincarnation that I have to come back and do it all over again but to go on and on without respite seems like hell more than heaven.

I think this is where many are mistaken about Christianity. Christians warn others of hell out of love and concern. I tell my relatives about hell because I love them, and don't want them to go there -- not believe or we will kill you. And I think it is impossible for anyone to state that "I don't want to be in heaven because I don't like it."

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Love,
Madeline

May 28, 2007, 04:37 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	Would you still choose Heaven? When you die you're given two options: 1) A paradise, but whatever god you worship is not there. 2) A paradise and whatever god you worship is there. When the choice isn't as obvious as Heaven or a lake of burning sulfur, would you still choose to be with your god at the end of your life?

May 28, 2007, 05:34 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
gw120 Stabbed By Satan Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 247	If I was theist I'd choose the latter of the two options, it would make my life seem like less of a waste. Economic Left/Right: -9.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.79 Reality is fantasy; Facts are perception.

May 28, 2007, 05:47 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Epistemologist God is good Location: Down by the river, stealing your water Posts: 1,518	No, but he would spend all his life sincerely believing in that God. But what's to stop the manic tide, The suicide of our own pride? The Complex

May 28, 2007, 05:48 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,446	I think the question is misphrased: 1. Heaven without God Or 2. With God wherever He might be... I'll pick 2... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

May 28, 2007, 06:02 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Duke1985 The Duke Location: Michigan Posts: 308	A very interesting question. Well I guess God can sit at my lunch table, so I'll choose number 2. He's bad news man, helter skelter down the drain man.

May 28, 2007, 05:03 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	Not a bad question. I would like my heaven to be where God continues to remain unseen and allows my imagination to create the paradise of my choice.

May 28, 2007, 05:20 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Gargoyle BANNED Posts: 32	I choose numero 3 because the first 2 are stupid!!!

May 28, 2007, 05:34 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	I guess the gist of this thread is to ask why are non believers punished for making that choice? I can see rewarding the believers. But why then go the extra step of punishing non believers? Seems very coercive to me.

May 28, 2007, 05:38 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	Do you spend every day in church or something?

May 28, 2007, 06:24 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Madeline Daughter of God Location: California Posts: 669	I believe what the scriptures state, that I know that I have "eternal life" with God, so it's not as simple as choosing between a) or b). Why am I given eternal life? is it because I'm better than others? no, certainly not. If you believe that Jesus died for your sins, rose again to conquer death and is the Son of God...And if you know that you are a sinner deserving to go to hell because you've broken at least one (probably all, like everyone else) of God's laws, but Jesus paid that penalty for you...then whether you "feel" it or not, you are saved! But Jesus only had to die once for the sins (as someone else said, past, present and future) of mankind. I believe the above. 1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. But since this is a hypothetical question you proposed -- I choose B. Eternal life is a free Gift...and what awaits those who accept this gift is beyond anything that this world can ever give. 1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. Oh boy, here I go again with my soapbox preaching...sorry! Love, Madeline Me and God, we'd be mates ;-)

May 28, 2007, 06:47 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	But why should those who sin and don't ask forgiveness from it be punished?

May 28, 2007, 06:55 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Madeline Daughter of God Location: California Posts: 669	I'm sorta tied up at the moment, but here I go again with scripture -- I apologize if it bothers you. Romans 2:12 15 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles (those who sin and don't ask forgiveness) , which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another Btw, I didn't put that wink there...that last verse (15) ends in a semicoloin and a parentheses. The writer is trying to tell us that pretty much everyone knows (at least I hope so) that rape or murder is wrong because their conscience tells them so, and God must punish sin just as a judge in a courtroom must punish a rapist. Hope this helps, sorry if this was confusing. Love, Madeline Me and God, we'd be mates ;-)

May 28, 2007, 06:59 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	Why should someone who leads a normal life deserve the same punishment as someone who murders just because he didn't believe?

May 28, 2007, 07:04 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
LordCaelvan Molten Ash Posts: 25	If there is a heaven (I'm an Athiest, so I doubt it), then that would suggest that there MUST be a god. I think that the two answers assume that there is a god. At the same time, if there is a heaven, than there must be somewhere else, i.e a hell. If there is an all powerful being that created all, but is only letting the "good" people into paradise, while sending the "bad" people to eternal damnation, I'm siding with the lesser of two evils, Satan. In a heartbeat. I'm not saying that to offend anyone or boil anyone's blood, I'm saying it as a fact. If traditional Christian fundementalism (or any relgious fundementalism for that matter) is to be believed, then I'm headed straight for the red place, and I'm glad about it.

May 28, 2007, 08:07 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	But why is all sin to be punished in the same manner?

May 28, 2007, 08:12 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	Hmm. And so Jewish people are within the written laws and us non-jewish people can have the law written in our hearts to follow. And yet it also said that the heart is full of deceptions. So that can be a bit confusing to some Gentles. However if I in good conscience know what is right in my heart then the only standard I must confrom too is that one to have eternal life or the only "commandment" that I would be judged by. And so I do not need to study the Bible to find out what is good or bad, because I am not Jewish. If I believe in the "rightness" of my heart it is the same as a faith in Jesus and that story even if I do not agree with church interpretations of that story or the concepts related biblically. Thusly beleiving in the secular morality standards as they are unvealed in the heart from out of the blue would go unpunished and would provide me with an eternal domian of deceptions likewise being projected through the lens of the heart form the imagination. Paradise without a tangable looking God but one that is like the one experienced here on earth where the Most High remains anonymous. I have no choice because in my heart I have left out any graven images of what god looks like. But if I create an image of God then that would remain with me. (re; post about the "designer God"). Amen and Awomen. However I do not name God as "God" but use the symbol "O". As such was commanded by my heart. Seek heaven first and all else will be added. So we need to experience heaven here and now in order to do on earth what is in heaven. Heaven is everything within the influence boundries of the great Spirit which tree of life has taken up housekeeping in the heart. We must of course do some house cleaning to prepare a temple for the spirit to rent, otherwise it might seek another house to dwell within. And so the mission is to go forth and prepare many houses (hearts) for the Lord Spirit to dwell in when visiting this dimension. Enough hearts would add up to a city of hearts and perhaps even a total heaven on earth. Then no matter where you go it will be just like heaven.

May 28, 2007, 08:30 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
LordCaelvan Molten Ash Posts: 25	Madeline, the big difference between god and a judge is that the judge: a) did not write the law, and b) did not create the possibility for the law to be broken. Not only did the theist's god create all these crazy rules for us to follow, but he made the possibility for us to break them as well! He's god for gosh sakes. If he wanted to he could have left out our ability to sin (and thus damn ourselves) and still given us free will, and we wouldn't have noticed the difference. He made everything after all, including the definition and concept of free will.