Death PenaltyVs Abortion DP is Moral Abortion isnt

[Liberty Landing]

Already over one hundred persons on death row have been exhonerated because our fail safe criminal justice system.

This means the system's fail safes work -- i.e., that innocent people aren't being executed, doesn't it?

[Gorgo]

http://www.november.org/stayinfo/bre.../ZNetWise.html

"Although all available evidence suggests that whites are equally or more likely to use drugs than blacks or Latinos (SAMHSA, various years, 1999-2003), and roughly equally likely to sell them (Riley, 1997: 1; Davis and Thomas, 1997: A20; Covington, 2001: 33), the fact remains that people of color continue to bear the brunt of the law enforcement crackdown which comprises the largest component of the so-called war on drugs.

For example, although white youth demonstrate greater usage of illegal narcotics than youth of color (SAMHSA, various), the juvenile justice system continues to treat youth of color as the biggest problem. Black youth arrested for a drug offense, with no prior records, are forty-eight times more likely to be incarcerated than their white counterparts, even when all other factors surrounding the arrest are similar ("Young White Offenders get lighter treatment," 2000: 8A).

Although blacks and Latinos are 90 percent of persons incarcerated nationally for drugs (Sidanius, Levin and Pratto, 1998: 142), they represent only 23 percent of drug users (SAMHSA, 2003, Table H.1. and calculations by author) according to the most recent federal data. Meanwhile, whites, who are between 70 percent and three-fourths of users (SAMHSA, 2003 and various), comprise less than ten percent of those incarcerated for drugs (Sidanius, Levin and Pratto)

In all, black drug users are nearly twenty times more likely than anyone else to spend time in prison for their use (Hilfiker, 2002: 39), and in fifteen states, the rate of black incarceration for drug offenses is anywhere from 20-57 times greater than for whites, despite equal or greater rates of drug law violations by whites (Human Rights Watch, 2000) Amazingly, when all other factors surrounding an arrest are the same, black cocaine offenders are twice as likely to be sent to prison and will serve, on average, forty months more than white offenders (Brown, Carnoy, et.al., 2003: 144)

According to a Justice Department report from February 2001, police are more than twice as likely to search vehicles driven by blacks after pulling them over, even though whites, when searched, are more than twice as likely to be in possession of illegal items. Latino drivers were between 2 and 2.26 times more likely to be personally searched or to have their cars searched by police, even though they are less likely than blacks or whites, per capita, to use drugs and thus possess them at any given moment (Langan, Greenfeld, et.al., 2001: 2, 22)

In other words, the war on drugs is so completely focused on people of color -- who statistically make up a small percentage of those committing drug offenses -- that it make little sense to consider it a war on drugs at all.

And to the extent said war focuses not on where the drugs are, but mostly where they are not, one must either conclude that policymakers and law enforcement agents who carry out this type of campaign are either extraordinarily incapable of recognizing futility when they see it, or else that their main concern is not reducing drug use and abuse, but rather, controlling black and brown bodies. Given the history of quite deliberate social control of persons of color -- which became harder to do overtly after the fall of segregation and Jim Crow, but which could be re-imposed by other means via mass incarceration in the present-day -- the latter seems far more likely than the former.

After all, it was President Clinton who buried the findings of a report his own White House commissioned from the RAND Corporation, which concluded that drug education and treatment strategies were up to five times more effective, and far less costly, than get-tough enforcement efforts (Currie, 1998: 109). In other words, if elites wanted to stem drug abuse or drug related crimes they already know how to do it, yet they refuse to act on what they know, all rhetoric and feigned concern aside."

See also:

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/

[Gorgo]

The "system" is not the reason these people are released. There is no one in the "system," making sure that this doesn't happen.

Originally posted by Liberty Landing, This means the system's fail safes work -- i.e., that innocent people aren't being executed, doesn't it?

[Liberty Landing]

Anyway, all this said, I oppose the death penalty.

It's not for the ridiculous, poorly-proven notion that it is racist just because more minorities are executed. It's not even that I find it particularly barbaric. Instituted properly, the death penalty could be a perfectly legitimate use of government power, just like public education.

But since neither can be instituted properly, I believe it's prudent not to institute either.

[Liberty Landing]

There is no one in the "system," making sure that this doesn't happen.

Then how are these people getting released?

[Gorgo]

If you don't know, then how can you say that the system is regulating itself?

[Liberty Landing]

Originally posted by Gorgo, If you don't know, then how can you say that the system is regulating itself?

I have no reason to care either way.

You, however, are the one making the claim that it isn't, so the burden of proof is on you to show that this is the case.

My opposition to the death penalty stems from the fact that even appeal mechanisms can fail. Where we obviously differ is that I acknowledge this as the exception to the rule, whereas you are blowing it out of proportion.

I would say that if we have to have a death penalty, this system is the best we can get.

[Gorgo]

It is you that made the claim that the system was regulating itself. You are too lazy to back that up and want me to take the time to back up a a refutation to a claim that you don't care enough about to back up yourself?

Do I have that about right? :(

[Liberty Landing]

Actually, I said:

This means the system's fail safes work -- i.e., that innocent people aren't being executed, doesn't it?

To which you responded:

This means the system's fail safes work -- i.e., that innocent people aren't being executed, doesn't it?

I asked you to tell me how and you refused by being a smartass. When I said that I would not accept your position until you back it up you accuse me of making things up and that not supporting them with fact.

If you're going to stop with, "I have proof that X is the case but I won't let you see it," I think I'll just go home. I haven't seen much out of you anywhere but strawmen and unproven assertions, anyway.

[Gorgo]

You need to look up and see what the term strawman means.


The Innocence Project is not a government-appointed group, if that's what you mean by the "System's fail-safes."

http://www.innocenceproject.org

[Liberty Landing]

But the courts that hear appeals are.

[Gorgo]

Right. But they won't hear the appeals without someone with the money and the power to challenge the system, and that is not part of the system.

And, of course, there is no reasonable evidence that society gains anything with the death penalty, so even if it were part of the system, it would be still be a very fallible method of repairing a system that has no reason to exist.

[Serenity9978]

[quote=peace_hawk,] Either life has no value or inherient value.

I don't think it's as cut and dried as that. Life is valuable, no matter whose, but I don't think one gets to retain that value after infringing upon someone else's same value. Does that make sense? In other words, I don't think everyone in prison should be executed; maybe I should clarify on that point. The death penalty should be reserved for violent revidivism and those who have had the temerity to kill someone else altogether. As for the issue of abortion, I'm not really interested in comparing the two. My claim did not refer to abortion at all; my only interest in debate lies with the death penalty.

[voyager]

The war on drugs is really a make work program for the middle class. It takes police, prison guards, lawywes, judges, social welfare agencies and news reporters. Just think of what he unemploument rate would be if the war on crime worked,

[shanartisan]

And to the extent said war focuses not on where the drugs are, but mostly where they are not, one must either conclude that policymakers and law enforcement agents who carry out this type of campaign are either extraordinarily incapable of recognizing futility when they see it, or else that their main concern is not reducing drug use and abuse, but rather, controlling black and brown bodies. Given the history of quite deliberate social control of persons of color -- which became harder to do overtly after the fall of segregation and Jim Crow, but which could be re-imposed by other means via mass incarceration in the present-day -- the latter seems far more likely than the former.

a) seems to me that the drug war in general isn't working.

b) not to say that prejudice doesn't exist anymore, but it's underground; it isn't institutional. When it's found in our institutions, it's an individual phenomenon, limited to small groups, or springing from one powerful person who influences other, less-powerful people to do likewise. On an individual basis, people are dealt with according to their offenses, one charge at a time.

You know what I think about a black man who kills a bunch of people and then whines that he's in prison because he's black? I think he ought to get the death penalty. That guy ain't locked up because he has a brown body, and it's the individual that gets executed after all, ain't it? They don't go a town at a time. The innocence project is fantastic and it ought to continue, but if more black men actually did a specific crime, they damn well better not start LETTING THEM OUT because they're black.

[oranged]

People in prison are forced to do some work for society, which should happen more but it's good. They also have written some great literature (mostly the innocent ones). Which brings up my last point, when in prison you can continue to call for more trials, when dead that gets more difficult. People doesn't seem to understand that an unborn fetus is not a person. They can't think, and personally I believe in souls, and I believe that a soul in place in some-one when they are born. That's when they start to think, learn, and precieve. Before that, they're blobs of cells equivalent to that of an ebola virus. The only difference is that stemcells can be used to treat desease.

[belverron]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I see, they are poor so its "not thier fault" right?

I agree, Vicchio.

Quote by: Gorgo If you were interested in reducing crime, you'd push education instead of locking up black people.

I agree, Gorgo.

[Mr.Vicchio]

If you really want to fix education push vouchers or disband the public school system, I outlined how once before, I am sure the thread is floating around here somewhere.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Gorgo People are in prison largely because they are poor or black, or Latino. People are on death row largely for the same reasons.

Nope, sorry. People are in prison because they commit crimes. There are a disproportionately larger number of blacks or hispanics commiting crimes because there are a disproportionately larger number of blacks and hispanics who are poor. This isn't a racial issue, it's an economic issue.

I don't think you're going to find anyone in prison who was found not guilty by a jury of their peers and thrown in jail anyhow because of their skin color.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Cephus People are in prison because they commit crimes.

There is just no reasonable evidence for such a statement. It is true that when it comes to violent crime, abject poverty is a factor. White people use drugs more, but people of color are imprisoned more for drug-related crimes.